RRC Archives

Porkchop,
1.) RS didn't close because of steel perma's... It closed because people didnt take time to find out the rules and respect them.

2.) Your comments regarding PD's are fair. However, what is not reasonable is the manner in which they were removed. I don't know, did someone approach Dario? Before removing them why not try to get a consensus from the climbers? Just sounds very shady the way this whole thing was approached and carried out.

the poll is running butt even for and against the permas so it seems that we have a split field on this one.

like toad said, taking the draws down and walking away with them is stealing, making the culprit a low life but clearly one of us. let's not forget that we as climbers are no better or no worse than the next man walking down the street.

to be clear, I am merely trying to facilitate discussion. If you guys all wanted the permas removed, I'd argue for having them fixed.

pigsteak wrote:to be clear, I am merely trying to facilitate discussion. If you guys all wanted the permas removed, I'd argue for having them fixed.

LMAO... quintesential Pigism

aburgoon wrote: I wish the media would start hyping some other area for a while to take the heat off this joint.

This is ridiculous. What is the media supposed to do? Write a story about Sasha Digiulian climbing 9a at the NEW river gorge? Media follows traffic, not the other way around. The media does have a responsibility, for example: I watched a very famous climber claim the first ascent of a very difficult route in an access sensitive area. You didn't hear about it. But the media is not to blame for the overpopulation of the Red. The Red is at fault. Ask any climber in America if they've heard of the Red and the New. They will say yes to both. So why are there 1000 cars parked at Muir Valley and an empty parking lot at Endless Wall? Because people like climbing at the Red. Blame geology for making sick holds on steep rock that people enjoy climbing on, not the media.

So how do we deal with overpopulation on a global scale? Two ways: Kill yourself and don't have babies. How does that relate to the Red? 1. Don't go to the lode. You are the problem (I am the problem) not everyone else. 2. Don't introduce more people to the sport.

It's a fact that a lot of people are climbing at the Red. Managing the population is the challenge. And managing the safety of that population requires thought. Does anyone remember a time not too long ago when the undertow was not equipped with steel perma draws? I do and guess what, it was entirely equipped with a bunch of razor sharp aluminum garbage that was ready to kill people. It was the consensus of the community that for safety reasons steel permadraws would be put in place. Now they are gone and by the end of the day all those routes are going to be equipped again and by the end of the month there will be a bunch of razor sharp aluminum garbage. I've hung my own draws on a project in a popular area and with a lot of traffic I've seen my halfway decent biners turn to trash in two weeks. That will happen. What throws the wrench in the 'hang your own draws' argument is exactly what I just mentioned. Scenario: weekend warrior from Lexington goes to project Ale 8. He hangs his draws and works it for the weekend. Leaves for the week, the draws remain, comes back, doesn't send again. Next thing you know he's been projecting the route for a month and his quicks are trashed. That is what happens. That is why the Undertow had the garbage on it before the steelies went in. That is why the steelies went up.

mike, why in the world would the weekend dude not clean his draws from Ale 8? are they really that hard to hang the next weekend? i realize that crux clips might need pre hung draws...but come on..unless a climber is climbing at the cutting edge of the sport, how about dropping it back a notch and finding climbs where hanging draws is not the crux....no one where care if you have climbed 12a, 12b, 12c or even 13c for that matter...and your mom will still love you either way.

("you" above is not directed at you mike..."you" as in the generic climber.)

pigsteak wrote:mike, why in the world would the weekend dude not clean his draws from Ale 8?

Because of what Mike already said about the sheer numbers and popularity of steep RRG sport climbs. If the weekend dude should happen to clean his draws, sheer numbers would make it incredibly likely that someone else would leave his/her draws on it. The fact that we're even having this discussion, and that your "devils advocate" stance is taking the position that it is, also shows that the prevailing culture at the Red is in support of making steep climbs more accessible with either perma or project draws.

In other words, draws will appear and stay on popular steep climbs whether we like it or not, based on the numbers of climbers and the climbing culture here. Steel permadraws, at very worst, are the lesser of two evils, and are pragmatically necessary for safety reasons.

As outsider, I am not "in the know" of who took the permadraws down, and why. They might have very good reasons that I am not aware of, but would very much like to hear about, before I can formulate an informed opinion on whether it was a good thing, or bad.

Example:

take the draws down in order to keep the area open, at owners request -- good.

take the draws down because 'that will chase away them weakmos who come and dog our undertow wall warm-ups and crowd the place'--bad.


There is a lot of "equipping with perma-draws, then stripping them off" that is going around these days. Mercy the Huff used to have the usual collection of mottley draws. Then it got perma-draws. Now they are gone. Wild Yet Tasty always had draws hanging, now they are gone. Who knows why, not me... I am sure it has something to do with the Forrest Service land, if they have to be off, then they have to be off. Yet there were still project draws hanging on Table of Colors. And there is still the first draw hanging on Wild Yet Tasty. And draws on Legend and Nagipapa, and semi-permanent project draws on Mule that seem to go on and off depending on who is climbing it. Go figure!

Did lack of draws stop me from getting on Mercy? No, and it wouldn't stop me from getting on Ale-8 either. Would I have enjoyed having the draws already there? Yes.

And as a side note, the only tangible effect of this chaotic equipping/stripping-for-reasons-that-no-one-bothers-to-articulate-to-the-climbing-community for me personally is that next time I see a fundraiser to equip some place or other with perma-draws, I'm likely to say, "screw this, I have other ways of burning the money"

I like the idea of leaving a few steel PD's for cleaning purposes for 90% of the routes.

FS land does not allow fixed perma draws..there should never be fixed draws at left flank, military, etc...never. you see them, strip them and leave them at the base with a note.

again, remove the candy, the crowds will disperse. I can promise you this. people only get on these routes because they do not have to clean them. it is a lazy man's mentality.