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gotcha....one more question. why the venom towards sprad routes? as you say there are hundreds of lines to be discovered out there, why in the world would someone poach a route someone else is having fun discovering? ok, so it was sent 30 years ago with no trace left behind...big deal. if the new guy wants to put in anchors and scrub before sending...so what.

I do take issue with folks who would "poach" any line that someone else has started to "work" on...I am 100% against merely eyeing a route and calling dibs on it, but once a way to the top has been found, or a trail built, or anchors installed, or static line hung to scrub, then leave the dude alone and go play somewhere else. what I find happening is now people are 'racing" to place anchors and climb stuff just to beat the next guy to it...to me that ruins the atmosphere.

if a guy bolts anchors on a gear route, I say anyone else can "poach" it, as long as they do not clip those anchors and take the route to the top.

LK Day wrote:...the "sprad" approach to creating modern trad routes sure makes a lot of sense.

Everybody who has posted has a point, but this is what I'm about for the most part. There's plenty of adventure to be had, but I personally want to leave a route that someone else can walk up to, rack up, climb and clip some anchors. Enjoying the puzzle and the climbing.

But that might also be just cause I'm an old man, and i know how long bones take to heal...

And while I except the etiquette of the day, I still don't understand why you can cut a trail, clear the base, clean the route and bolt it and have a red tag respected (for the most part); but do the same with a trad line and you're just inviting bees to the nectar... (wanted to work in the "poached fruit" somehow, but...) and scorned by your peers.

Oh dear Mr Pigsteak, are you happy? Poke the bear and then run away...

pigsteak wrote:gotcha....one more question. why the venom towards sprad routes? as you say there are hundreds of lines to be discovered out there, why in the world would someone poach a route someone else is having fun discovering? ok, so it was sent 30 years ago with no trace left behind...big deal. if the new guy wants to put in anchors and scrub before sending...so what.

I do take issue with folks who would "poach" any line that someone else has started to "work" on...I am 100% against merely eyeing a route and calling dibs on it, but once a way to the top has been found, or a trail built, or anchors installed, or static line hung to scrub, then leave the dude alone and go play somewhere else. what I find happening is now people are 'racing" to place anchors and climb stuff just to beat the next guy to it...to me that ruins the atmosphere.

if a guy bolts anchors on a gear route, I say anyone else can "poach" it, as long as they do not clip those anchors and take the route to the top.

Your last rule sounds good to me. And I have no "venom" towards sprad routes and in fact employ this style regularly. My only beef is with shutting the route down to others for any length of time. Ultimately folks have too much ego wrapped around the idea of an "FA"... after the first couple dozen it really doesn't matter who climbs it first, except in the case of sport routes where someone has invested $50-100 in the deal. And the fact of the matter, you're almost never 100% sure that a trad wasn't climbed before, so the idea of telling others they're not allowed to climb on it because you think you may be the first to climb it (someday) is silly. The whole "race" to be FA is meaningless, it's more fun to just climb and not be wrapped up in who did it "first" because ultimately it doesn't really matter that much on trad routes. "Closing" a crack to others is kinda tacky to my mind, but like I said earlier and Kipp reiterated, there is plenty of rock to play on so whatever. Climbing is a fun and meaningless game so waiting another few months or a year is no big deal, it's just nice out now that's all!

And Russ, you're right--it should be the imperative of the FA to leave a route behind for others to enjoy. I have never left a trad route behind that was dangerously loose or too dirty to repeat, without cleaning it a little first afterwards--no matter what style I climbed it in.

mr. jackson, my time here is done....lol


except to lay in to caribe later on.

I am not about poaching trad or sport. People put work into area development. IMO this involves acquiring access, developing the trail in the area and clearing the cliff base, etc. I recently did a wild and woolly ground-up attack of a trad line at such an area under development. IMO I should have communicated with the developer before I climbed. I really had to give this some thought, but I have adjusted my perspective on this issue. There is enough rock for us all to climb nice with each other, why is it me telling someone who was there first that they can go somewhere else for an FA?

And to think, Art, only two months ago I basically had to FORCE you to send "my" crack and even drilled a bolt on the intro face moves for you!! Such a whimpering I have never before heard... I even had to go around the corner to give you boys some privacy!

All that said, I am not in the habit of snatching FAs, even on philosophically unsound sprad "projects" that were probably sent twenty years ago anyway (I actually get psyched if someone else can send a route in better style than me, but that's just me).... I just want to climb and definitely don't want to hurt anyone's feelings!

dustonian wrote:And to think, Art, only two months ago I basically had to FORCE you to send "my" crack and even drilled a bolt on the intro face moves for you!! Such a whimpering I have never before heard... I even had to go around the corner to give you boys some privacy!

That was not my first nasty ass attack at the unknown from the ground up. I am not a quiet lay. As far as what you were doing around the corner while I was whining and whimpering audibly in fear and pain . . . let's just say that I know you were touching yourself!

OMG how did you know?!??! It's true, your moans of pain and horror were highly arousing that day. I mean, amusing.

In reference to Poaching. I don't mean be clueless or disrespectful of other's efforts. But if someone's tying up a nice line on an open public cliff and not making every effort to get the job done quickly, I say make a statement, poach the mother. Don't tell me I can't climb where I want. The guy that was developing the line is still free to finish his creation. If it's no longer worth it because he was in it for the glory of the FA - then tough shit. Legend has it that Alex Lowe used to walk up to unfinished sport climbs around here and simply hike 'em, not bothering to drill any additional anchors. I don't know if it's true or not, but I like the story.

Piggie, you SOB, I know whatchya done.

lol...ur welcome mr. day....

still, I find it difficult to see how this works..these blank faces with no bolts have been there forever, and then as soon as someone else takes the time and money to develop it, suddenly it is the "must do" route for the poacher....?