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Stix, I don't get why people find the grigri so difficult to manage properly. However, I do recall my grigri learning curve and how much easier atc type devices were to use from scratch. My current device, combines the benefits of both.

Oh god, here we go again...

I was at the lode yesterday. I'm glad the guy was ok and able to walk away from that. I'm just wondering if we know for sure that this was another belayer freezing on the grigri or if it was the belayer not paying attention? I'm pretty sure you can see the climber the whole time on bohica. From where the climber fell I don't know why anyone would think he was clipping unless they weren't paying attention. Either way accidents are going to happen, but there is no excuse for using a belay device the wrong way or not paying attention.

dustonian wrote:Oh god, here we go again...

I am not going here and u 2 should restrain yourself.

cliftongifford wrote:Faders SUM?

I love mine... But, I also don't have any issues with my GriGri... I do feel that the GriGri is easier to misuse and that it gets misused more frequently, unfortunately.

stix wrote:it's not the device or the method that matter. when your climber weights the rope make damn sure your break hand is on the brake side of the rope and in the appropriate position to create enough friction to stop the fall. most of us choose to do this by keeping a brake hand on the brake rope all the time, but obviously there are tons of small variations on the belaying theme that are practiced successfully every day.

actually it is the device AND the method that matter. there are plenty of wrong ways to use belay devices. a wrong method coupled with a squeezing brake hand on the rope doesn't equal a safe catch 100% of the time. when it comes down to it, there is a right way and wrong way to use any device. no matter the device, your brake hand should never leave the rope. if you watch the petzl videos, they explain this clearly. they even show a guy hanging direct on a draw in cold weather, and the belayer keeps in brake hand on the rope while putting his brake hand into his puffy jacket pocket to keep his hands warm.

regardless of your "small variations" one thing is certain, no variation is correct if you brake hand is ever leaving the rope.

toad857 wrote:

stix wrote:obviously there are tons of small variations on the belaying theme that are practiced successfully every day.

Yep--we are constantly reminded that those 'variations' will prevent decking 99.5% of the time.

my point exactly... +1

727foxtree wrote:I hear you - again, all I'm saying is their thumb technique is a good way to avoid grasping the entire device. It seems like a good way to prevent someone from locking their hand down in surprise when a fall happens. As to Petzl's inconsistency in their video to manual information, that IS weird and confusing for people. I agree with you, and I missed that totally. Nothing like muddying the water with safety information! Ughhhh.

Thanks for point that out...

it's not the "thumb technique" that makes that technique work. it's the fact that the brake hand is still on the rope that feeds out below the grigri. if you use the "thumb technique" but you don't keep your brake hand on the rope, then you're doing the technique wrong. that technique still makes me a bit nervous, however, because you are still blocking the cam, which is not ideal. Petzl points this out in their video, as they encourage you to limit using this technique when possible and if you do use this technique they are pretty straight forward about using it and then going back into the regular "atc" position asap. this is one of the reasons i prefer the sum to the grigri, because you never block the cam on the sum when you are using it properly.

In addition to the ATC incident that Andrew mentioned (at the Lode), I too have decked at the motherlode while being belayed with an ATC. My belayer has been climbing for ten or eleven years now, even. In discussing it with my belayer (who was a regular partner of mine before I moved to Ohio), no real reasons came up for what happened. IMO, it's harder coming back from something like that than it is to come back from trusting someone that you really knew better than to trust. I've watched him belay lots of other people, and I've never thought to myself "Eek, I'd rather him not do it like that."

If you want to read it, then whole accident is written up on rc.knob, here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/for ... ead#unread

I should note that when I say "12 foot fall," I meant overall, not from 12 feet above the bolt... Also, KMITJ has been rebolted since the accident.

I'm not one to hand somebody a gri-gri and act likes its an infallible device. In this case though a gri-gri may have prevented the incident.

I started climbing in 1971, the era of the hip belay. I never saw anyone get dropped back then, though I'm sure it happened. I mean you wrapped the damned rope around your body for friction then held on tight and pushed your brake hand down between your legs when your partner fell. It was kind of obvious that if you didn't pay attention to what the fuck you were doing your best friend was likely to die. Belaying was clearly a serious undertaking, and I think most people looked at it that way. Then the belay plate came along, a simply enormous improvement over the hip belay. Now any wimp could catch a runaway freight train. Yahoo! Safe and simple belaying at last! Equipment continued to improve, Tubers, ATCs, etc. Only one problem. People got way casual about it. I started noticing that people were always taking their damned brake hand off the rope. I didn't cut 'em any slack, no matter how experienced they were. I tried to politely point out what was wrong whenever I saw bad belay technique, even to total strangers. Believe me, nobody appreciated it, no matter how gracious and polite I tried to be. Nobody ever said, "Thanks" it was always a sneering "My hand was only off for a second" or "It's too hard to do it your way - this way is much easier". Until there is some kind of elevated status associated with being a technically good belayer, let's say something at least a bit above "belay slave" things aren't likely to get any better.