Who does it belong to?

[climb2core]

Close it or don't..are those really the only two options?

How about keep it open, but please police yourselves. there's a novel idea....

O wait, Dr. Bob already said that, but we got derailed by Clevis frothing at the mouth.

I have to disagree with you Piggie... already stated my parking lot analogy. Can you find fault with that analogy... I would like to hear? This is not the place or the way for Dr. Bob to go about asking for help policing, just as taking out a billboard announcing "Make sure people don't park in my lot" is not a reasonable solution either.

If he wants help, he should go to the privileged few that get to climb there WITHOUT paying. Or needs to be wiling to offer people something to police HIS property, and not blame the community for what I am more than willing to bet is a VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE of the number of climbers that come to the Red each week.

Like I said, I would be willing to help in return for an opportunity to climb there even once in a while.

[ReachHigh]

+1 on removing it from future print version of the guide book and the iphone app, I would like to see it stay on the online guide.

[climb2core]

+1 on removing it from future print version of the guide book and the iphone app, I would like to see it stay on the online guide.

You must have climbing privileges, lol.

[ReachHigh]

+1 on removing it from future print version of the guide book and the iphone app, I would like to see it stay on the online guide.

You must have climbing privileges, lol.

I've rented a cabin before and will again.

[krampus]

I have to disagree with you Piggie... already stated my parking lot analogy. Can you find fault with that analogy... I would like to hear? This is not the place or the way for Dr. Bob to go about asking for help policing, just as taking out a billboard announcing "Make sure people don't park in my lot" is not a reasonable solution either.

First off, Dr. Bob does not make money from the people he lets climb on his land. If I let you park in my lot for free, I would most certainly have the right, scratch that, the justification to ask you to keep people without permission from parking in my lot. In fact it makes sence to let a few people in to watch over the place. But all that is asside from the fact that he doesn't need a right or justification, its his place, period. No I do not have a pass to get in, but I have no problems letting someone manage their land how they want too.

[steep4me]

Wow. What the F*#^! is wrong with people? I cannot figure out why someone would be hostile to a private land owner who allows public access to his land to climb. It's a gift you idiots. Any time you climb at Muir or Torrent you better feel some gratitude because the only reason that it is available to you is out of someone else's generosity. Also, be grateful to the RRGCC, Team suck etc. Do you think these areas develop and maintain themselves? It takes time, money and effort for it to exist. The least people could do is say thanks, give money, participate in events and trail days, follow the rules. It's not that hard.

That being said, I have twice publicly whined about wishing I could climb at a closed area in Pendergrass. However, I don't break the rules and go there (like some people do), and I have learned my lesson about whining when I should be saying thanks for all of the other places that are open.

Anyone bitching at Bob can take up w/ the Blue chalk guy and go f*@^% yourselves.

[climb2core]

I have to disagree with you Piggie... already stated my parking lot analogy. Can you find fault with that analogy... I would like to hear? This is not the place or the way for Dr. Bob to go about asking for help policing, just as taking out a billboard announcing "Make sure people don't park in my lot" is not a reasonable solution either.

First off, Dr. Bob does not make money from the people he lets climb on his land. If I let you park in my lot for free, I would most certainly have the right, scratch that, the justification to ask you to keep people without permission from parking in my lot. In fact it makes sence to let a few people in to watch over the place. But all that is asside from the fact that he doesn't need a right or justification, its his place, period. No I do not have a pass to get in, but I have no problems letting someone manage their land how they want too.

Krampus, you need to re-read my original argument... you missed the point buddy. I DO expect him to go to ask the people that climb for free on his land to help out... but that was NOT what he did. He should manage as he sees fit. Again, go re-read my original argument, maybe two or three times. Your argument with me will seem nonsensical if you get my argument.

[rhunt]

It has been suggested that I create further signage, greater web presence, etc. to address these issues; however, I feel that anything that I have to “do” is an imposition on me and should not be a part of allowing general access to my property. In a nutshell the climbing community should realize that the easiest way to deal with access issues for private property owners is to close all access and that the response from every climber should be “WE CAN POLICE OUR OWN” in an effort to prevent closure.

Dr Bob - Rob here from Columbus, Ohio, we have met a few times over the years. I have re-read your whole post a few times and I wanted to make a point about the above quote. What I was trying to get across in my last post is that we are in a new uncharted place right now with climbers at the Red. Whether or not you believe we are at a saturation point with the crowds, we can't argue that its more crowded now than ever and the numbers increase a lot each year. Numbers at Miguel's alone are bigger than what a holiday weekend looked like 10 years ago....hell even 5 years ago. Maybe there are new things to consider as to what it does take as a property owner in this new era. 10 years ago, what seemed like an imposition might now just a part of being a climbing area land owner. I truly believe we are past the place where "we can police our own". We have out grown the ability to spread the word about rules, without using mass media, the internet and yes more signage. We have been lucky with the PMRP so far and a lot of that has to do with improved relationships with the oil companies yet things can go bad there quickly. The oil companies can make access to the PMRP a real hassle if they felt the need to. Please don't get me wrong here, I am not at all suggesting that you have to do anything, that you need to imposition yourself. My point is to suggest considering that the way land owner managed there open climbing areas has changed. Mark tried the old methods of regulating climbing and spreading the rules about climbing when he owned Torrent and it failed thus he closed it. Rick and Liz asked nicely for people to obey simple rules about bringing their dogs on the property and the climbers failed to follow the rules so they banned dogs from Muir Valley. For as much as I think its crazy how much Rick and Liz work (at their retirement property) to manage climbers at Muir Valley, that's probably the only way it works these days.

Again I hope that did not come out wrong. I think you owe climbers nothing - they are absolutely entitled to NOTHING and what you ultimately decided to do with your property is entirely up to you and you have my full support.

[ted]

How can you close it to the community as a whole, then come to the community through a public forum and rant about the climbers not doing enough? The only thing that bothers me is Torrent used as an example of "saving access"(my ass)! did you buy torrent to save it for future access? or just to have a kick ass private crag? Just make it clear to people. If it was mine, i would close it down to EVERYBODY (except close friends), and wave at every car with an out state plate with a Budweiser in one hand and my nuts in the other! while wearing my cutoff jorts. barefooted.

[dustonian]

Wow, climbing is truly packed full of assholes these days. It's really not that hard to wake up early & get a Torrent pass if you want to--or it wasn't anyway, until a few dipshits decided to run their idiotic mouths on this thread. In fact, passes were available all day today! Meanwhile, a couple of choads on here were busy bitching & whining their lives away, to the detriment of a nice, super charitable guy like Bob & everyone else who enjoys climbing at Torrent. Talk about selfish!

Anyway, big thanks Dr. Bob for all you've done...always a pleasure chatting with you in your backyard. Closing Torrent would be a bummer, but sadly understandable & relatively insignificant considering you paid the PMRP mortgage multiple years. Let me know if you need help with anything at all around Torrent. Sorry our hobby has gotten so douched out in recent years & thanks again!