Climbing Accident in Muir

[francescopesci]

Did he have his hand on the cam holding it open to feed slack and let go too late? Did he have any burns on his hands? Did he thread it backwards? Was it a skinny rope?

I ask the question because I have a hard time believing that someone can catch a fall with their hand enough to keep the cam from engaging unless he had some severely burnt hands.

Hope you heel well!

Well, the thing is exactly that GRI GRI is not perfect and there are some reasons why it can fail to work. In my case, I assume the belayer was not holding the cam open, but it slowed the sliding of the rope down because he held the rope on the upper part. And this prevented the rope to act on it with its full tension and therefore to the cam to engage on time. The rope was not skinny, it worked thousands of times with the same GRI GRI. As a general issue I think that the best way to use the GRI GRI is to use it as an ATC device, with a hand ALWAYS on the lower part of the rope: you wouldn't grab the ATC itself if you're in panic, you wouldn't grab the rope above it (I actually know of someone who did it!). If you use it this way, you'll see its advantages, the main one being that it blocks the rope much earlier than an ATC.


This being said, I agree about the fact that having a good communication with your belayer is a huge help in preventing accidents. I can tell you!


Oh, and thanks to all the people who wished me a speedy and full recovery

[climb2core]

If he was surprised the gri gri would catch long before he could get his hands on the rope. This really sounds like the fri gri was miss-fed backwards. Do you know if this was checked before your belayer took you off belay???

[pigsteak]

I at leats know who Nancy Reagan is...does that count?

[Toad]

That's better than what Ronnie could do in the end.

[THB]

I do think the best way to belay with a gri gri and I practice a method where my hand never leaves the break end of the gri gri and I don't ever hold the cam open to feed slack. That being said, I fail to see how the gri gri would fail without a hand on the break end. I solo climb with the gri gri all the time and it has caught hundreds if not thousands of times with no hands on the device at all. I do tie backup stopper knots to keep me off the deck but have never used one to date.

Did he have his hand on the cam holding it open to feed slack and let go too late? Did he have any burns on his hands? Did he thread it backwards? Was it a skinny rope?

I ask the question because I have a hard time believing that someone can catch a fall with their hand enough to keep the cam from engaging unless he had some severely burnt hands.

Hope you heel well!

I did some research on this a couple summers back. It actually doesn't require much grip at all with the hand above the device to keep it from catching, this is true for a grigri and for a cinch (the 2 devices that I was researching). And if you're wearing a glove on the hand that you feed rope with, than that can add to the problem, which is why I don't like the sight of people belaying with a glove on their rope-feeding-hand. Also, it only takes a split second for the device to not catch and for the climber to deck. This is especially true when the climber is in the range of the 1st four bolts. Once the climber is above about the 5th bolt, assuming the belayer isn't wearing a glove, the belayer will let go because of the pain of rope-burn and the device will catch before the climber decks. I don't know why, but some people have the instinct to grab tightly on the rope above the device when a climber is falling and this is a very very bad practice to get into because it keeps the device from doing its job. This whole problem is magnified when people belay by holding down the cam of the device (this is most commonly the mis-use on the grigri)... this is also why I don't like the grigri... and its not the fault of the device, i think a grigri is a fine device... its the fault of the user... unfortunately the grigri gets misused all the time...

[krampus]

I don't know why, but some people have the instinct to grab tightly on the rope above the device when a climber is falling and this is a very very bad practice to get into because it keeps the device from doing its job. ..

I think the instinct to grab tightly can be atributed to gumbies being taught how to belay on a gris gris first. When I was taught on an atc, and Caribe can probably verify, one of the first things I was taught was to forget about this instinct with the rope feeding hand and assume the breaking position with the break hand. I think that learning on the gris gris, people often forget to teach these fundamentals and people move on from gumbydome having never learned, or had engrained into the fabric of thier being, the proper fundamentals of breaking device functionality. 999 times out of 1000 its not an issue, but occasionally it is.

[TradMike]

I think some testing is in order. video camera, stopper knot to make sure the climber doesn't deck, various diameters of ropes, gloves and a willing stunt person.

Lets see if we can fail the gri gri by holding the rope above the gri gri with no break hand. I'd imagine the fat ropes would be hard to fail. I'm not sure with the skinny ropes because I only climb on fat ropes and have a good idea how they react. I have seen someone freak out and try to grab the wrong end. It still caught fine but it was an 11mm rope. The skinny ropes do scare me because I have seen how fast they can fly trough the gri gri. And I hate to rappel down from big climbs on twin 8mm ropes because of how hard it is to keep them under control with an atc (they require a backup system for sure). A fat rope will stop you with the weight of the rope alone plus they have tons of friction to engage the cam on a gri gri.

[Shamis]

Did he have his hand on the cam holding it open to feed slack and let go too late? Did he have any burns on his hands? Did he thread it backwards? Was it a skinny rope?

I ask the question because I have a hard time believing that someone can catch a fall with their hand enough to keep the cam from engaging unless he had some severely burnt hands.

Hope you heel well!

Well, the thing is exactly that GRI GRI is not perfect and there are some reasons why it can fail to work. In my case, I assume the belayer was not holding the cam open, but it slowed the sliding of the rope down because he held the rope on the upper part. And this prevented the rope to act on it with its full tension and therefore to the cam to engage on time. The rope was not skinny, it worked thousands of times with the same GRI GRI. As a general issue I think that the best way to use the GRI GRI is to use it as an ATC device, with a hand ALWAYS on the lower part of the rope: you wouldn't grab the ATC itself if you're in panic, you wouldn't grab the rope above it (I actually know of someone who did it!). If you use it this way, you'll see its advantages, the main one being that it blocks the rope much earlier than an ATC.


This being said, I agree about the fact that having a good communication with your belayer is a huge help in preventing accidents. I can tell you!


Oh, and thanks to all the people who wished me a speedy and full recovery

I also wish you a speedy recovery. And I bet you a million dollars he did pinch the cam. When people pinch the cam, the climber starts falling, and they panic more. They are trying so hard to stop the climber, just squeezing with both hands as hard as they can. One hand is pinching the cam, the other hand is wrapped on the rope. Always taught never to let go. So the hand on the climber side of the rope gets burned. Happens every fucking time.

[Toad]

Not so much if the gri-gri is treated like an ATC.

[THB]

I think some testing is in order. video camera, stopper knot to make sure the climber doesn't deck, various diameters of ropes, gloves and a willing stunt person.

Lets see if we can fail the gri gri by holding the rope above the gri gri with no break hand. I'd imagine the fat ropes would be hard to fail. I'm not sure with the skinny ropes because I only climb on fat ropes and have a good idea how they react. I have seen someone freak out and try to grab the wrong end. It still caught fine but it was an 11mm rope. The skinny ropes do scare me because I have seen how fast they can fly trough the gri gri. And I hate to rappel down from big climbs on twin 8mm ropes because of how hard it is to keep them under control with an atc (they require a backup system for sure). A fat rope will stop you with the weight of the rope alone plus they have tons of friction to engage the cam on a gri gri.

No need... as I stated in my previous post, I've already done this testing. I have video footage of the tests, it used to be posted on the internet, but I don't think the website is still running where the videos were posted. I think I still have them on my personal computer though.

We did exactly what you are explaining... we held the rope above the device (both a gri gri and a cinch) with no break hand and we were able to fail both devices in this manner. Again, it's much easier to do when you're wearing a glove because without a glove the pain of the rope burn will make you eventually let go. We tested on ropes up to 10.3mm and we were able to fail the device with this rope diameter, can't say for sure on any ropes fatter than this, but I'm sure you can still get it to fail... maybe not as much... We tested many other scenarios as well, but I don't feel the need to go in depth on this forum. If you want more details, catch me in person sometime and I'll explain to whole shebang.

Also, on another note, tying a "stopper knot to make sure the climber doesn't deck" isn't always a best practice. It is a good practice if you are using your "locking-assist" device similar to an ATC, because the stopper knot hits your hand and then you know you are close to the end of your rope or whatever. But, it isn't necessarily a best practice if you don't have your break-hand on the rope. The reason is that it is possible for the knot to roll-over itself and tighten up and get sucked into the device and explode the device. We were only able to make this happen a few times out of all of our drop-tests, but after seeing it happen even just once, I'll never tie a knot on the break-end of my rope if I'm using a "locking-assist" device and I know I won't have my break-hand on the rope. Once the device explodes, you might as well as take it off, it's worth-less. I back-up my device with a prusik instead of with a stopper knot, for example, in a bolting situation, or any other situation where I know I'll be taking my break-hand off the rope.