lol...age over beauty my friend. and do not confuse tommy and I as friends. can't stand the guy.bcombs wrote:wait a minute... I was nit-picky with spoonman awhile back and got kicked in the balls for it.... The pig and his crew get a pass? I'm taking my ball(s) and going home.
Muir Valley
Re: Muir Valley
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
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Clevis Hitch
- Posts: 1461
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:10 pm
Re: Muir Valley
its not the question of who you can stand but who can stand you...
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
Re: Muir Valley
very true...Clevis Hitch wrote:its not the question of who you can stand but who can stand you...
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
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climb2core
- Posts: 2224
- Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:04 pm
Re: Muir Valley
And I was just starting to respect you and then you go and agree with Clevis.... ugh.pigsteak wrote:very true...Clevis Hitch wrote:its not the question of who you can stand but who can stand you...
Re: Muir Valley
Life without spell check….
Yo…. not kicking anyone! I did not vote on the poll, but I want to change my vote:
1. Kinda care
2. Not ironic
Let’s just go with “not ironic”
First, except for presidents (and Donald Trump), Muir might have more properties named after him than anyone?
Second: naturalist, rock climber, conservationist, preservationist, engineer from Indianapolis, I see many familiarities.
As co-founder of the Sierra club, “one of the most important conservation groups in the United States.” It appears the term applies. As for “father of the National parks”, savior of Yosemite and Sequoia. Muir obviously wanted to preserve the areas for enjoyment of future generations. I do not think he ever removed himself from the properties. That was one of his main points,… we need to get out into the wilderness.
“He often encouraged city dwellers to experience nature for its spiritual nourishment. Both men opposed reckless exploitation of natural resources, including clear-cutting of forests. Even Muir acknowledged the need for timber and the forests to provide it, but Pinchot's view of wilderness management was far more utilitarian.[29]
So……Muir’s evolution created a new Label: preservationist. I think that is in line with what the Weber’s are doing: Preserving the land for future generations, with minimal impacts as to preserve the integrity and natural splendor of the area, while facilitating this to others. Many sources use the terms interchangeable. The term is gray at best. Regardless:
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wilderness is a necessity; and that mountain parks and reservations are useful not only as fountains of timber and irrigating rivers, but as fountains of life.”
Also: “…..but it is not my home. Up there," pointing towards the Sierra Nevada "is my home."
All the users of Muir valley are getting this benefit because of the Weber’s preservation mentality and off “the scale” generosity. Muir thought the national government should get involve to save parks…..I cannot help but think the John would have been proud of the Weber’s for taking this responsibility upon themselves.
Yo…. not kicking anyone! I did not vote on the poll, but I want to change my vote:
1. Kinda care
2. Not ironic
Let’s just go with “not ironic”
First, except for presidents (and Donald Trump), Muir might have more properties named after him than anyone?
Second: naturalist, rock climber, conservationist, preservationist, engineer from Indianapolis, I see many familiarities.
As co-founder of the Sierra club, “one of the most important conservation groups in the United States.” It appears the term applies. As for “father of the National parks”, savior of Yosemite and Sequoia. Muir obviously wanted to preserve the areas for enjoyment of future generations. I do not think he ever removed himself from the properties. That was one of his main points,… we need to get out into the wilderness.
“He often encouraged city dwellers to experience nature for its spiritual nourishment. Both men opposed reckless exploitation of natural resources, including clear-cutting of forests. Even Muir acknowledged the need for timber and the forests to provide it, but Pinchot's view of wilderness management was far more utilitarian.[29]
So……Muir’s evolution created a new Label: preservationist. I think that is in line with what the Weber’s are doing: Preserving the land for future generations, with minimal impacts as to preserve the integrity and natural splendor of the area, while facilitating this to others. Many sources use the terms interchangeable. The term is gray at best. Regardless:
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wilderness is a necessity; and that mountain parks and reservations are useful not only as fountains of timber and irrigating rivers, but as fountains of life.”
Also: “…..but it is not my home. Up there," pointing towards the Sierra Nevada "is my home."
All the users of Muir valley are getting this benefit because of the Weber’s preservation mentality and off “the scale” generosity. Muir thought the national government should get involve to save parks…..I cannot help but think the John would have been proud of the Weber’s for taking this responsibility upon themselves.
Re: Muir Valley
Toad... Not quite right about what you are trying to say... You think that the USFS's primary an organizations that sets aside forest for use of their resources? Well not really... The USFS manages under the Mulitple-Use Sustained-Yield Act of 1960. This act saids national forests are used to be administered on a multiple-use basis with five primary and equally important uses: outdoor recreation, timber production, grazing, watershed protection, and wildlife and fish habitat (Jensen, J. & Guthrie, S., (2006). Outdoor Recreation in America.). So you are WRONG about what you say about the USFS, timbering is only PART of their management practices.
I also think you are alittle hard on Ol' Pinchot. According to Jensen and Guthrie (2006), "Although an advocate of the "sustainable use" of forest, believing that forest should be managed for MULTIPLE USE. In particular, his motto was that resources should be put to the "highest use," determined by "the greatest good for the greatest number." I do not feel like going into the full history of the USFS, but if you are interested there is a great movie called, "The United States Forest Service, The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number". But in the 1960's outdoor recreation was a large part of the USFS management philosophy.
Next, how is Muir Valley an nature preserve? A NATURE PRESERVE (natural reserve, nature preserve, natural preserve) is a protected area of importance for wildlife, flora, fauna or features of geological or other special interest, which is reserved and managed for conservation and to provide special opportunities for study or research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_reserve). Have you been to Muir Valley? Trees are cut down at the base of the cliffs, lichen is scrubed from the rock and trails and roads are all over the place, I don't think this falls under protecting flora... It is over crowded with hundreds of people in the small valley some days, I would guess that this is not great for the natural wildlife and fauna. I am sure you all can see what I am getting at.
I could be totally wrong about what makes something a nature preserve. I looked online and in textbooks and could not find a universal set of rules and regulations for nature preserves. I did look at some rules from other nature preserves around the country. Ohio nature preserves are NOT allowed to have rock climbing or rappeling and I found no nature preserves that did allow rock climbing. So, if somebody knows I would love to hear about it.
Once again I am not trying to start shit with the Webers or with Muir Valley. I love the place!!! I don't think asking questions is a bad thing. I really am interested in land management and the more knowledge I can gain the better.
I also think you are alittle hard on Ol' Pinchot. According to Jensen and Guthrie (2006), "Although an advocate of the "sustainable use" of forest, believing that forest should be managed for MULTIPLE USE. In particular, his motto was that resources should be put to the "highest use," determined by "the greatest good for the greatest number." I do not feel like going into the full history of the USFS, but if you are interested there is a great movie called, "The United States Forest Service, The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number". But in the 1960's outdoor recreation was a large part of the USFS management philosophy.
Next, how is Muir Valley an nature preserve? A NATURE PRESERVE (natural reserve, nature preserve, natural preserve) is a protected area of importance for wildlife, flora, fauna or features of geological or other special interest, which is reserved and managed for conservation and to provide special opportunities for study or research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_reserve). Have you been to Muir Valley? Trees are cut down at the base of the cliffs, lichen is scrubed from the rock and trails and roads are all over the place, I don't think this falls under protecting flora... It is over crowded with hundreds of people in the small valley some days, I would guess that this is not great for the natural wildlife and fauna. I am sure you all can see what I am getting at.
I could be totally wrong about what makes something a nature preserve. I looked online and in textbooks and could not find a universal set of rules and regulations for nature preserves. I did look at some rules from other nature preserves around the country. Ohio nature preserves are NOT allowed to have rock climbing or rappeling and I found no nature preserves that did allow rock climbing. So, if somebody knows I would love to hear about it.
Once again I am not trying to start shit with the Webers or with Muir Valley. I love the place!!! I don't think asking questions is a bad thing. I really am interested in land management and the more knowledge I can gain the better.
I don't have haters, I have fans in denial.
Re: Muir Valley
Spoonman...Do you think Muir would be happy with how Yosemite and Sequoia are being managed now? Do you think Muir would rather have had wooden stairs leading up the his favorite cliff or mountain? Do you think he was pissed off because there were not hundreds of people running around him making a bunch of noice and shitting all over the woods?
Yup! He sure would be proud!
You are fully right about the Weber's off the scale generosity! I have never disputed that.
Yup! He sure would be proud!
You are fully right about the Weber's off the scale generosity! I have never disputed that.
I don't have haters, I have fans in denial.
Re: Muir Valley
Matt, I think the real issue with most overuse problems is the same issue that is paramount on the planet.
I believe that is carrying capacity (relative to quality of life), overpopulation, and maybe eventually absolute carrying capacity.
I apologize for the first post, even though I’m not sure the point was taken (none of my business what someone else names whatever, and it’s just ink on paper)….regardless: I think we are on the same team.
I agree (I think you agree) that some places need to be left undisturbed. Arctic National Wildlife Refuge……come on …leave one place in the country (planet) left undisturbed!
Have we ever heard a politician talk about carrying capacity, slowing growth, economic repealing? ………..Estimates for population growth in 50 years are upwards to doubling world population….14 billion! 7 billion is bad enough…..we are under 400 million here and it’s too crowded! Add that to global warming, and 20 other factors……not optimistic …..
MV not that bad…….the wooded steps are not aesthetic, but help minimize impact….basically they are doing their best and the growth in the sport is not their fault (small fraction). I think their intentions are pure and modern day similarities to John Muir- congruent. Maybe we should be raising funds for a bathroom, and septic, or get charged a fee to maintain port-e-lets…..helped at Rifle?
In the past 25 years the gorge remains amazingly beautiful. Impacts are always present, wind, rain, human, other animal.
When I come back from the gorge I feel refreshed and rejuvinated......and I work for a park system, which I love and totally enjoy. Our issue is vandilsim.
Peace!
I believe that is carrying capacity (relative to quality of life), overpopulation, and maybe eventually absolute carrying capacity.
I apologize for the first post, even though I’m not sure the point was taken (none of my business what someone else names whatever, and it’s just ink on paper)….regardless: I think we are on the same team.
I agree (I think you agree) that some places need to be left undisturbed. Arctic National Wildlife Refuge……come on …leave one place in the country (planet) left undisturbed!
Have we ever heard a politician talk about carrying capacity, slowing growth, economic repealing? ………..Estimates for population growth in 50 years are upwards to doubling world population….14 billion! 7 billion is bad enough…..we are under 400 million here and it’s too crowded! Add that to global warming, and 20 other factors……not optimistic …..
MV not that bad…….the wooded steps are not aesthetic, but help minimize impact….basically they are doing their best and the growth in the sport is not their fault (small fraction). I think their intentions are pure and modern day similarities to John Muir- congruent. Maybe we should be raising funds for a bathroom, and septic, or get charged a fee to maintain port-e-lets…..helped at Rifle?
In the past 25 years the gorge remains amazingly beautiful. Impacts are always present, wind, rain, human, other animal.
When I come back from the gorge I feel refreshed and rejuvinated......and I work for a park system, which I love and totally enjoy. Our issue is vandilsim.
Peace!
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DriskellHR
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:34 pm
Re: Muir Valley
Before the weber's bought the valley there was :
1. Logging, lots of it. The whole valley was selectively harvested. Look around you'll see it.
2. NO climbing, but lots of ATV's
3. Historically important/sacred sites were being pillaged
4. No trails, no bridges, no roads (well unless you had your nuts screwed on tight for on helluva ride)
I wish I had pics of the area prior to their purchase.
Now, the vegetation has recovered, the streams have too. There is climbing and NO atv's (they get on my nerves). They have effectively hidden or protected any historical sites from digging (thank god) And there is a kickass system of trails and roads making it one of the premier climbing venues in the red.
While I don't always agree with everything they webers have done (really when do we all agree on something anyway?). They have taken a damaged and ravaged area and made it beautiful again. My hats are off to them and their crews, we benefit from their hard work. They can name it Weber land for all I care. It belongs to them, after all.
There is a valid poit to this discussion But If you buy a crag, you should get to name it whatever the hell you want!
wait, am I talking again?...... damnit! I know better.......
1. Logging, lots of it. The whole valley was selectively harvested. Look around you'll see it.
2. NO climbing, but lots of ATV's
3. Historically important/sacred sites were being pillaged
4. No trails, no bridges, no roads (well unless you had your nuts screwed on tight for on helluva ride)
I wish I had pics of the area prior to their purchase.
Now, the vegetation has recovered, the streams have too. There is climbing and NO atv's (they get on my nerves). They have effectively hidden or protected any historical sites from digging (thank god) And there is a kickass system of trails and roads making it one of the premier climbing venues in the red.
While I don't always agree with everything they webers have done (really when do we all agree on something anyway?). They have taken a damaged and ravaged area and made it beautiful again. My hats are off to them and their crews, we benefit from their hard work. They can name it Weber land for all I care. It belongs to them, after all.
There is a valid poit to this discussion But If you buy a crag, you should get to name it whatever the hell you want!
wait, am I talking again?...... damnit! I know better.......
"....... Be sure to linger......." Mike Tucker
Re: Muir Valley
Right on Mike....great points there.