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I hear you bcombs but tell me how more money will help? Money will get things paid for and will help the Weber's feel better about letting climbers destroy their private property but it is not going to change climber's behavior. Back before the PMRP was purchased, the RRGCC was doing a gym talk tour to raise awareness about access. Maybe its time for another tour but now about how to behave outside, including advice on where to get proper climbing instruction, etc. Would Miguel's on a busy random Saturday night be a good place to do regular talks.

rhunt wrote:I hear you bcombs but tell me how more money will help? Money will get things paid for and will help the Weber's feel better about letting climbers destroy their private property but it is not going to change climber's behavior. Back before the PMRP was purchased, the RRGCC was doing a gym talk tour to raise awareness about access. Maybe its time for another tour but now about how to behave outside, including advice on where to get proper climbing instruction, etc. Would Miguel's on a busy random Saturday night be a good place to do regular talks.

Money does a lot more than "help the Weber's [sic] feel better" about keeping Muir open as a recreational preserve for everyone. Money actually makes it possible to run the place and keeps them from having to pay for all the maintenance of the road and bathroom, cleanup, trail days, and rescue equipment out of their own pockets. Money also pays the mortgage at the PMRP and enables us to acquire more crags in the future. You should watch the way you word things and show a little more appreciation--Rick and Liz do read this forum regularly, you know. Your attitude conveys a lack of respect, and it is definitely not helpful to discourage people from giving donations just because you have become cynical.

That said, you're right--actions are just as important as money, if not more important. It is good that you recognize this, and you should organize some of the talks you describe at Miguel's or gyms near Columbus... this is a great idea!

rhunt wrote:I hear you bcombs but tell me how more money will help?

I didn't want to make it sound like one approach is right and one is wrong, just wanted to state that I found your idea interesting. I think I have never really considered any money or time (little of both, but I do what I can) as being invested for anyone but myself. The return is immediate. I hadn't considered it purchasing future climbing credit, but more like paying admission.

My scope is somewhat limited, I have only been climbing for 5 or 6 years, so I don't have a notion of what it was like 10, 15 or 20 years ago. I agree that it is busier the past few years, but in all honesty, what did we expect? We brought in RocTrip, we flyer for Rocktoberfest, Spring Reunion, J&A Day, UClimb, Muir events, etc, etc... There seems to be mucho complaining about pain we are effectively inflicting on ourselves. Should we stop these events? Of course not! We love it when UClimb brings in 5K, 10k, whatever for the coalition. We get psyched about announcements that we have this years payment. I personally get psyched thinking about what is going to happen after the PMRP purchase. Hiking some of the nearby cliff line, there is still loads of potential to help spread out the masses. Hopefully the coalition has that in their sights. The increase in accidents and increase in people, poop and bad belaying is what I expect for years to come. It will peak and taper off and then we'll have to find something new to discuss. Or, talk about the good old days of 2010.

dustonian wrote: ....just because you have become cynical....

oh the sweet cynic. John Muir never would have tolerated such a thing.

um dustonian, as an old fart friend of rhunt's, I can attest that he reguarly contributes money to the cause, and he has valid points.

rick and liz know I love them , muir valley, and having the place to climb. I have a valley pass, so I might be shooting myself in the foot. I still maintain the parking lot needs to be cut at least in half to limit the crowds at Muir Valley. The disrespect continually shwon towards them and their property will not go away with simple words on here. a BIG ACTION is needed to get our collective attention. Either limit parking to ten cars per day, or even close Muir for a month. We need our tree shaken...

Thanks for trying to stick up for me pigsteak. Yet I would rather people think I am some short newbie that never gives back than they learn who I am or any history. As it is, I learned again that it is a major SIN to be even slightly critical of Muir Valley or the Weber's approach to managing climber and their property and for that I beg for dustaonian et al for mercy and forgiveness.

Now since I got that out of the way. Rick was being specific about his request for more money - it had to do with the way people treated his public bathrooms. I am sure it was disgusting and I am sure he feel literally shit on by climbers and right fully so. My point is money will not completely fix the problem!

Just as bcombs said we have created our own monsters as for the crowds but I don't think developing more cliff as a way to spreading them out is a good management plan. And as for the idea that the popularity of climbing will taper off in a few years, that is exactly what pigsteak and I were saying 10 years ago.

Cynical, hey dustonian, lets revisit that little word about 5 years from now...

Hey rhunt, no I don't know you and didn't mean to offend you personally...I was only responding to the content and tone of that one post. I have been climbing in the Red since 1995 or so and yeah, there have been lots of changes, lots bad, lots good, and yes the overcrowding in recent years is super annoying if you go to popular established crags and yes the trash and poop at the crags is unconscionable. But there are a lot of good things about the community here that you don't really get anywhere else in the country, and the concept of climbers acquiring crags thru grassroots organizations was essentially born here and is tremendously exciting.

Anyway, I agree with you in essence--an outdoor education (& clearly belaying skills) campaign is long overdue and direly needed. But I also think supporting non-profits like FOMV and RRGCC is important and everyone who climbs here should have to pay access/parking fees for maintenance and upkeep costs (damn that KY rec law in some ways). I believe in what the Webers are creating at MV, admire their vision there, & basically just want to support that.

Anyway didn't mean to imply anything on a personal level about you, hope you can understand that with no hard feelings. Sorry if I came across otherwise.

it's just the torrent donations didn't work out so i feel like this is wishful thinking. maybe the visitor day counts and a presentation before the county comissioners by some recognizable civil engineer will enjoin a new bond referendum to lay infrastructure to wolfe counties biggest revenue stream.

but whatever the economic/tax benefit of outright ownership, llc and recreational use, i'd like to see the math and don't understand why this isn't presented forthrightly as the compelling reason to be part of the solution.

now, anyone want a bong hit?

[quote="clif"]it's just the torrent donations didn't work out so i feel like this is wishful thinking. maybe the visitor day counts and a presentation before the county comissioners by some recognizable civil engineer will enjoin a new bond referendum to lay infrastructure to wolfe counties biggest revenue stream.

quote]
bingo. we saw this with torrent, and creatures of habit will...ah, you know.

my suggestions, for smaller parking lots, a month closure, etc are aimed at waking up the masses, not on getting MV closed.....between the Weber's and the RRGCC board, and a select few others, 90% of the climbing we love is close to being secure. for that, I extend a heartfelt thank you.