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I don't know, maybe I live in a world of fantasy, but here's how I see things:

In a couple of weeks I'll be visiting the Red for two weeks. A 16 hour drive from Montreal. With me I'll have a few locking stainless steel biners and a bunch of regular straight-gate biners. All brand new. None of them will ever come back from that trip.
The rings on creature feature don't look about to fail from what I can see, but me, I would've just added two biners and called it a day.
I do the same thing when I visit Rumney, or one of my local choss pile (where ignorant climber/morons constantly steal them).

That's an easy (and still pretty cheap) way for me to contribute to the crags I love and say thank you to the people who put in time and money. I don't have the know-how to do real maintenance, like drilling new bolts and changing anchors, but leaving new gear behind is an easy way to save anchors, and everybody can do it.

I never rappel off routes, and I don't expect people at sport climbing venues to do so, even on warm-up routes. It's a waste of time and it increases the potential for accidents. If everyone did like me and bought a few extra anchor biners every time they dropped by the climbing shop, then anchors would maintain themselves and the rapping vs lowering debate would be resolved.

Like I said, fantasy?

Wonder1900 wrote:I don't know, maybe I live in a world of fantasy, but here's how I see things:

In a couple of weeks I'll be visiting the Red for two weeks. A 16 hour drive from Montreal. With me I'll have a few locking stainless steel biners and a bunch of regular straight-gate biners. All brand new. None of them will ever come back from that trip.
The rings on creature feature don't look about to fail from what I can see, but me, I would've just added two biners and called it a day.
I do the same thing when I visit Rumney, or one of my local choss pile (where ignorant climber/morons constantly steal them).

That's an easy (and still pretty cheap) way for me to contribute to the crags I love and say thank you to the people who put in time and money. I don't have the know-how to do real maintenance, like drilling new bolts and changing anchors, but leaving new gear behind is an easy way to save anchors, and everybody can do it.

I never rappel off routes, and I don't expect people at sport climbing venues to do so, even on warm-up routes. It's a waste of time and it increases the potential for accidents. If everyone did like me and bought a few extra anchor biners every time they dropped by the climbing shop, then anchors would maintain themselves and the rapping vs lowering debate would be resolved.

Like I said, fantasy?

well said

+1 !!!

Wonder1900 wrote:I don't know, maybe I live in a world of fantasy, but here's how I see things:

In a couple of weeks I'll be visiting the Red for two weeks. A 16 hour drive from Montreal. With me I'll have a few locking stainless steel biners and a bunch of regular straight-gate biners. All brand new. None of them will ever come back from that trip.
The rings on creature feature don't look about to fail from what I can see, but me, I would've just added two biners and called it a day.
I do the same thing when I visit Rumney, or one of my local choss pile (where ignorant climber/morons constantly steal them).

That's an easy (and still pretty cheap) way for me to contribute to the crags I love and say thank you to the people who put in time and money. I don't have the know-how to do real maintenance, like drilling new bolts and changing anchors, but leaving new gear behind is an easy way to save anchors, and everybody can do it.

I never rappel off routes, and I don't expect people at sport climbing venues to do so, even on warm-up routes. It's a waste of time and it increases the potential for accidents. If everyone did like me and bought a few extra anchor biners every time they dropped by the climbing shop, then anchors would maintain themselves and the rapping vs lowering debate would be resolved.

Like I said, fantasy?

Well intentioned, but if you care to look at the booty thread, you'll see that it is fantasy to think that the biners will live past a day or three on those anchors. You can keep your fave biners and just donate your hard earned canadien money to team suck, the anchor replacement initiative, the access fund, rrgcc or just keep your home crag in good shape for when we come visit your neck of the woods... I think taking the 10-20 bucks you spend on all those extra biners would be better off in the hands of people with the time and means to affect a more permanent change when the anchors need it.

Still, good on you for making an honest effort. I certainly appreciate it and I'll try to emulate the thought and sentiment in my visits to other areas.

Or if you climb at Muir on your two week visit, send some money to http://www.friendsofmuirvalley.com/

Also, a side note, don't hang leaver biners on the hangers if they are the metolius rap setup. It just creates a gaggle of gear up there and is confusing. Report the bad setup here or to team suck and someone will try to replace it the right way.

Thanks for throwing that one out there... was racking my brain trying to think of all the great places people can donate.

powen01 wrote: Well intentioned, but if you care to look at the booty thread, you'll see that it is fantasy to think that the biners will live past a day or three on those anchors.

I searched for the booty thread but haven't found it yet. Could you link to it? I'd be curious to read it. And yes, we all agree that it is somewhat of a fantasy, but it's not because some climbers steal anchor biners, it's because not enough climbers leave some. If the practice was well-spread, it wouldn't matter that some party left with the biners because the following party would add another set, and so on and so forth.

You can keep your fave biners and just donate your hard earned canadien money to team suck, the anchor replacement initiative, the access fund, rrgcc or just keep your home crag in good shape for when we come visit your neck of the woods... I think taking the 10-20 bucks you spend on all those extra biners would be better off in the hands of people with the time and means to affect a more permanent change when the anchors need it.

Well first, the biners I leave behind were bought for that purpose. I don't deplete my rack of my fave biners to equip anchors. Secondly, I totally get what you're saying: that my money might be better invested elsewhere. However, human nature being what it is, I don't feel this is so right. Donating is one of those things that's real easy to say and think. A lot of people say it, think it, and mean it, but never actually do it, myself included.

With anchor biners, it's different, I do buy some every time I visit the climbing shop, even if it's only a pair, and I do leave 'em behind the next time I go climbing. A donation is very different: if I do decide to donate online, maybe I'll do it once in the year, whereas with anchor biners, it's a season-long process. It's also a lot easier to find 15 bucks to spare once in a while (I was there to buy some stuff anyway, so what's 15 bucks more?) than finding a 100 bucks for a donation. Of course you'll say that it's not necessary to donate a hundred bucks, and I'll agree, but I'm just comparing with the amount of gear I'll end up leaving at the crags at the end of a season: probably upwards of a hundred dollars.

The other factor is the observable return on investment. When I buy a pair of stainless steel locking biners and leave them at the top of a route, I see the result right away, an improved anchor, safer, more durable, more convenient: Boom, I'm smiling, I'm happy, and I wanna do it again.

I know that some of these biners end up on someone else's rack, and in a way it's some of my money in their pocket, but I try to not let that stop me from doing it, because then it's everyone's loss. I tell myself that these people fail at life anyway, and karma remembers.

So in the end I'd rather tell you that I'll visit the Red in a couple of weeks and leave behind half a dozen biners (and maybe these biners will spare the anchor for a while) than tell you "sure I'll donate" and then forget to do it. see what I mean?

bcombs wrote:Also, a side note, don't hang leaver biners on the hangers if they are the metolius rap setup. It just creates a gaggle of gear up there and is confusing.

Well, I try to leave biners when they will make an anchor more convenient. If for instance the biners change the angle and create more friction on the rope because it scrapes on the rock face, I'll add quick links as well to correct that. If it doesn't seem practical at all, I'll leave the set up as is. That being said, I'm not sure what you mean by a "confusing gaggle of gear" as I've never climbed a route that ends at lower-off biners and been confused. Can you elaborate? (I don't mean to sound sarcastic, I'd really like to know)

Wonder1900 wrote:That being said, I'm not sure what you mean by a "confusing gaggle of gear" as I've never climbed a route that ends at lower-off biners and been confused. Can you elaborate? (I don't mean to sound sarcastic, I'd really like to know)

Easy, take a look at the picture that started this thread. Let's say the fixed ring was actually worn more than 50% and you decided you were going to do something to fix it. What would you do with that setup? If your response is adding a couple of biners a link or two up the chain from the rap rings, then you have successfully created a gaggle. Nice work.

you won't find what your looking for in the booty thread. that thread was about booty, not anchors or cleaning biners. However, cleaning biners get snagged all the time, and its not impossible for an anchor biner to get swiped but its much less likely. I mean there are still anchor biners on ro. Personally, I still leave cleaning biners as often as possible, if some jackhole wants to take the swing into a tree to get my crappy biner, let him.

"you won't find what your looking for in the booty thread. that thread was about booty, not anchors or cleaning biners."

See, I think people see leaver biners and anchor biners as booty sometimes (not me). Thought that thread talked about that attitude. Maybe it was another site... meh, sorry.

Either way Wonder, thanks. Hope it came across that I appreciate what you do either way.