RRC Archives

To give an idea of cost differences, a stainless steel Powers bolt will cost about $7 more than a plated at wholesale cost, a Fixe hanger about $.75, and a Fixe single rap-ring anchor about $3.
As I have offered in the past (in other posts), I would be happy to place orders for any reboltnig fund, whether Team Suck or something new. I can order from Fixe, Hilti, and can contact the US distributor of the new Titt glue-ins. I am also willing to help with any rebolting effort. I have my eye on a couple of popular lines to re-do sometime this summer, but if some organized effort gets underway I can be a part of that too.

Of course, once you redo the zinc-plated bolting twice in 20 years, the SS puts you ahead. Just have to decide if you want short-term savings or long-term payoff. Not to mention someone actually has to DO the work twice (if anyone actually does the second or third time around), and if you can't reuse the hole you wind up with a big shitey mess on the route.

Hm, those price differences don't sound wholesale to me for some reason. Of course, I have mostly bolted with 3/8" (in granite), but I was getting SS for about $7 and plated for about $3.50 or 4. I guess the 1/2" by 3.75" are just a lot more expensive all around... youch. Mad Rock hangers are the best if they still make them (I can't stand those ugly-ass Fixe hangers, especially the plated ones, and Metolius are more expensive). Lord and Sons in San Jose has really cheap 1/2" SS bolts, but they are wedge anchors not 5-piece.

dustonian wrote:Of course, once you redo the zinc-plated bolting twice in 20 years, the SS puts you ahead. Just have to decide if you want short-term savings or long-term payoff. Not to mention someone actually has to DO the work twice (if anyone actually does the second or third time around), and if you can't reuse the hole you wind up with a big shitey mess on the route.

Hm, those price differences don't sound wholesale to me for some reason. Of course, I have mostly bolted with 3/8" (in granite), but I was getting SS for about $7 and plated for about $3.50 or 4. I guess the 1/2" by 3.75" are just a lot more expensive all around... youch. Mad Rock hangers are the best if they still make them (I can't stand those ugly-ass Fixe hangers, especially the plated ones, and Metolius are more expensive). Lord and Sons in San Jose has really cheap 1/2" SS bolts, but they are wedge anchors not 5-piece.

I wouldn't choose a hanger on how much it aesthetically pleases you, but on how well it functions. Rick thinks the Fixe hangers are the best choice because they have dimples that help prevent them from becoming spinners:

"The Fixe hanger bracket has a distinct advantage over the Metolius and Petzl versions. As can be seen in Figure 11, they include three semi-perf dimples that dig into the rock face when the hanger is bolted down. This significantly reduces the possibility of the hanger being loosened due to being torqued by an offset load." http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/BoltingRed17.pdf

The biggest problem with glue-ins is you can't hang on them while you're bolting. Almost imposible if you're on a overhanging route. You just cant get the line tight enough. I used to use a Simpson strongtie Titan-HD to drill and place temporary holes. I've bolted routes from the bottom up using them to hang off of.(direct aid). I've also used them as hanger and anchor bolts in conjunction with set-22 glue. Makes a universal fix all. The only thing is, they don't come in SS. If they did, I think POWERS would be out of business as far a climbers are concerned.

http://www.simpsonanchors.com/catalog/m ... index.html

How strong are those Joe. Have you tried them is soft sandstone.

The way I drill with these things is
(1) drill the 3/8 hole
(2) using a ratchet I screw in the Titan-hd
(3) Remove the Titan-hd
(4) Blow out the hole real good. (I also use a nylon bore brush to get it extra clean)
(5) then I take my Set-22 glue gun and and squirt out a little of it into a baggie. I manually mix the set-22 rather than use the nozzles for two reasons. The nozzle wastes alot of glue and is hard to shut down and you end up with a big mess.
(6) clip the end off of the baggie and like a confectioaires squirty thingy I shoot it into the hole.
(7) I leave a little extra set-22 on the lip of the hole. When the bolt is tightened all the way up the little extra will lock the hanger in place and you'll never get a spinner
(8) Screw the bolt almost all the way in then back it out and then all the way in again (spreads the glue around)
(9) screw it all the way in,orient the hanger and viola! You have a glue in bolt with a mechanical back-up that you can immediately weight and is less messy than a conventional method of placing a glue in bolt.

http://www.simpsonanchors.com/catalog/a ... nsion.html

Some impressive numbers!!!

dustonian wrote:Don't want to stir up a can of worms here so to speak, but wondering if there might be a way to get a rebolting fund going to use the best possible hardware? Seems worth the extra $5-6 or so to use longer-lasting SS and avoid this process again later down the road. I wonder if it could start being a part of the RRGCC mission since the PMRP purchase is looking fairly probable at this point? ...

Dustin, the RRGCC does not get involved in route maintenance because it is counter to our mission of promoting responsible climbing. Terry Kindred said it best, "We are responsible for the world of climbing, not someone else." I know some people have a problem in seeing the distinction but consider this analogy. As part of responsible climbing the RRGCC encourages people to point out any unsafe practice (As happened when Kenny approached Joe in this situation). But the RRGCC does not pay people to go out to the crag looking to make sure people are belaying properly, not backclipping, z-clipping, etc. The RRGCC's primary mission is to keep climbing areas open to the public. We provide the canvas for the artist to exercise their talent but not the paint or the brushes. Rockman has an excellent blog post on this subject - http://adventurerockclimbing.blogspot.c ... rench.html .

Right, I guess I can see what you're saying with regard to FAs (although it would be nice to subsidize SS bolts here too so we avoid these issues altogether), but not with regard to rebolting existing routes. The canvas is no longer blank, and it is simply a matter of maintaining one's own property (in the case of the PMRP--granted these bolts are almost all brand new) safely. This does directly benefit all climbers, and it can affect access too--as an example, consider the consequences of bolt failure and injury/fatality at an access-nebulous area like the Lode with lots of corroded bolts. I would posit that the vast majority of donors to the RRGCC would support a portion of their donations going to maintaining safe bolts and anchors on existing routes. Poll time?

I am not saying that people should get paid to re-equip aging routes, just that they shouldn't have to buy the bolts by themselves (which is preventing the purchase of the best-possible longest-lasting hardware) and then do the work themselves too on someone else's route so everyone else can climb the route safely! It just doesn't add up... we should all be pitching in to support rebolting, but as it is the RRGCC commands huge attention, public exposure, and almost all climber donations without spreading the love around a little bit to hardworking folks like Team Suck doing a necessary job for all of us. Just my one cent anyway....

dustonian wrote:I would posit that the vast majority of donors to the RRGCC would support a portion of their donations going to maintaining safe bolts and anchors on existing routes. Poll time?

generally speaking, this country lacks a sense of community. instead of getting involved when there is a hurricane, earthquake, bolting needs, etc, we usually just "throw money" at the problem. i think that placing any bolting responsibilities on the RRGCC would exacerbate this issue, and would further distance people from taking it on themselves.

because the RRGCC doesn't take any role in re-bolting routes, it probably makes people stop and think about those bolts a little bit more.

you're right, though... the question remains...