just out of curriosity, would crooked wallered out holes make for good placements with glue ins. Its seems like there would be more surface area to bond to and theinconsistancies on the sides of the hole would act as something for the glue to grab on to. In which case would popping out the old bolts and adding glue be a good option?
If you are reading this Rick, when you used to do a lot of bolt testing at Muir did you ever experiment with these types of situations?
Sport lines in wilderness areas
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michaelarmand
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- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:08 pm
This would also be a positive from a LAC perspective. If we can safely reuse the existing hole (maybe expand it a bit) - then we don't have to drill additional holes. I could see how 100+ years from now after many rebolting efforts our impact could appear very significant with many old holes drilled in the rock.krampus wrote:just out of curriosity, would crooked wallered out holes make for good placements with glue ins. Its seems like there would be more surface area to bond to and theinconsistancies on the sides of the hole would act as something for the glue to grab on to. In which case would popping out the old bolts and adding glue be a good option?
If you are reading this Rick, when you used to do a lot of bolt testing at Muir did you ever experiment with these types of situations?
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Ascentionist
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It is really hard to remove the old bolts. Really. Hard. Esp. without scaring the rock pretty bad. Even getting a spinner you just drilled out isn't easy, and it is way worse with older bolts.
From what I have heard here and there, sounds like some kind of gluein stainless stock with eyebolts, maybe 6" by 5/8" or so is the ticket. Those holes are going to suck to drill for sure. Also, probably best to have a few teams of drillers, but maybe just one fully qualified person or two that applies the glue.
I think it would be rad to do this the right way, but it is going to be way more difficult and pricey then the usual replacement setup.
From what I have heard here and there, sounds like some kind of gluein stainless stock with eyebolts, maybe 6" by 5/8" or so is the ticket. Those holes are going to suck to drill for sure. Also, probably best to have a few teams of drillers, but maybe just one fully qualified person or two that applies the glue.
I think it would be rad to do this the right way, but it is going to be way more difficult and pricey then the usual replacement setup.
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1/2"x80mm (3.149") Marine Grade $8.95 each - http://www.fixeusa.com/glue-in_boltsM.htm
or
1/2"x150mm (5.9") Stainless $7.95 each - http://www.fixeusa.com/glue-in_bolts-541.htm
The tricky part is having all your holes ready for bolts/glue. The glue cures faster in warmer temps and you only have so long to work with it.
Rick Weber is a wealth of info, and Kipp has used them too.
Eric and I delivered a box of the twisted glue-ins to the New a couple of years ago for Rick, he may get/give a better price than the Fixe items above.
Not sure just how "sloppy" you want to get with your hole. I'd imagine the truer the better.
or
1/2"x150mm (5.9") Stainless $7.95 each - http://www.fixeusa.com/glue-in_bolts-541.htm
The tricky part is having all your holes ready for bolts/glue. The glue cures faster in warmer temps and you only have so long to work with it.
Rick Weber is a wealth of info, and Kipp has used them too.
Eric and I delivered a box of the twisted glue-ins to the New a couple of years ago for Rick, he may get/give a better price than the Fixe items above.
Not sure just how "sloppy" you want to get with your hole. I'd imagine the truer the better.
Doing a quick count from the online guide and to replace every bolt and every anchor bolt, be it cold shuts or what is now currently rap hangers, it looks like 177.
Veldhaus Route is a tree, and there is no bolt count for Go Easy online. So around 191 or 200!
Still think getting with Rick is a good thing to consider. While the glue ins he had were not as "fat" where the the draw hangs as the Fixe, the part of the glue in that is inserted into the rock is, plus the "twist" in the stock adds more glue-gripping surface.
Just have to throw this out for consideration:
Glue ins sound great and bomber, but are messy to install and a little more work intensive.
Also think it should still be considered that people might start bailing/rapping directly off of glue ins causing faster wear than is possible on a "regular" stainless bolt/hanger assembly, resulting in us being back at this point (re-bolting) sooner rather than later.
Any Anchor Replacement Initiative (stainless) top anchors still available?
(edit) don't forget to add the cost of glue to the toal too. About $30/8oz tube, plus nozzles (maybe one per route) around $5 each.
Veldhaus Route is a tree, and there is no bolt count for Go Easy online. So around 191 or 200!
Still think getting with Rick is a good thing to consider. While the glue ins he had were not as "fat" where the the draw hangs as the Fixe, the part of the glue in that is inserted into the rock is, plus the "twist" in the stock adds more glue-gripping surface.
Just have to throw this out for consideration:
Glue ins sound great and bomber, but are messy to install and a little more work intensive.
Also think it should still be considered that people might start bailing/rapping directly off of glue ins causing faster wear than is possible on a "regular" stainless bolt/hanger assembly, resulting in us being back at this point (re-bolting) sooner rather than later.
Any Anchor Replacement Initiative (stainless) top anchors still available?
(edit) don't forget to add the cost of glue to the toal too. About $30/8oz tube, plus nozzles (maybe one per route) around $5 each.
We are using 16mm (5/8 inch) glue-ins now in Muir Valley. These are the "twisted" ones that Andrew mentioned. They are made by Jim Titt, and thus sometimes called "Titt bolts." He has a very informative site, www.bolt-products.com. In terms of holding power, they are far superior to Fixe, Petzl, Ushba, or other manufacturers because of the unique twists. Hilti makes some threaded rod anchors that may also work, but then you have to deal with a hanger and nut (and thus them loosening and spinning).
There are also 1/2 inch Titt bolts that are actually stronger than a Powers bolt, so since you would be hand drilling this would likely be the best option for you.
Using the original hole is not problematic in any way, and in fact a nice feature of glue-ins. It doesn't matter if the hole is reemed out or otherwise irregular because the glue will simply fill it all in. This is also true if you reem out the outside edges of a hole; as long as you squirt the glue in there it will all be filled.
Rick has found it best, and thus recommends, using the Hilti 500-RE glue. The material and air temperature needs to be greater than 24 degrees (F).
One thing to remember when using glue-ins is that you cannot clip back into the newly placed bolt, and since you wouldn't want to hand drill temporary holes for mechanical bolts (later to be removed), 'keeping in' while using glue-ins is a bit difficult. However, FRC is pretty much vertical, so this shouldn't be too bad.
I hope this info helps to answer some of the questions that have been raised. Thank you to all of you willing to go and undertake the task.
There are also 1/2 inch Titt bolts that are actually stronger than a Powers bolt, so since you would be hand drilling this would likely be the best option for you.
Using the original hole is not problematic in any way, and in fact a nice feature of glue-ins. It doesn't matter if the hole is reemed out or otherwise irregular because the glue will simply fill it all in. This is also true if you reem out the outside edges of a hole; as long as you squirt the glue in there it will all be filled.
Rick has found it best, and thus recommends, using the Hilti 500-RE glue. The material and air temperature needs to be greater than 24 degrees (F).
One thing to remember when using glue-ins is that you cannot clip back into the newly placed bolt, and since you wouldn't want to hand drill temporary holes for mechanical bolts (later to be removed), 'keeping in' while using glue-ins is a bit difficult. However, FRC is pretty much vertical, so this shouldn't be too bad.
I hope this info helps to answer some of the questions that have been raised. Thank you to all of you willing to go and undertake the task.
Wave Bolt- the best climbing bolt available! www.wavebolt.com
"...I'm over all that macho stuff, and if I bolt a route, it will be done properly." - Colin Goodey
"...I'm over all that macho stuff, and if I bolt a route, it will be done properly." - Colin Goodey
It is a greater concern for the epoxy adhering to a slick surface of a stainless steel bolt than to the rock surface inside the hole. That is why the Jim Titt "twist-wire" type bolts hold so well. Lots of spaces for the adhesive to lock into.krampus wrote:just out of curriosity, would crooked wallered out holes make for good placements with glue ins. Its seems like there would be more surface area to bond to and theinconsistancies on the sides of the hole would act as something for the glue to grab on to. In which case would popping out the old bolts and adding glue be a good option?
If you are reading this Rick, when you used to do a lot of bolt testing at Muir did you ever experiment with these types of situations?
We tried wallowing out the bottom of holes to a greater diameter than the outer portion of the hole, and this worked a bit better than a straight-sided hole. But the tool needed to wallow out the larger dia. cavity is expensive and awkward to use.
Recently, folks at the New have had great success core drilling out old wedge bolts and gluing 8 mm Jim Titt bolts into the newly-cored hole. Creates an 8000-pound plus anchors.
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