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Trad FAs do not necessitate a Red Point or a Pink Point, only getting to the top on gear without aiding.

How do you get an FA on preplaced gear? That's an oxymoron for sure.

Didn't the whole red point FA scenario develop completely for sport climbing? You'd spend hours bolting a route, pseudo-climbing and envisioning/working out moves, but one would dare call that an FA. So then it was up to the climbers to go at it. Someone then deemed that the first climber to do it cleanly would be listed as the FA.

Until sport climbing the first climber to the top was the FA. Then it was a matter of how it was graded (free, aid, et al).

This thread is ruining my mental image of the bad asses of yesteryear. If this is true we need to go back and specify the FFA on all the routes that need it.

bcombs wrote:f this is true we need to go back and specify the FFA on all the routes that need it.

But FFA just means it went on gear (removable - thus free) without aid. The free portion only means you no longer have to pound a piton - a product of the clean 'style' movement. It doesn't necessarily mean you didn't fall or hang or became frustrated, but you did do the moves and plug the gear.

NOTE I think the thing that is missing from the equation is the obvious thing that no one talks about. The boldness of the unknown! I'm pretty new to the game, but I believe that FAs are definitely warranted (by trad standards) when you get to the top, from the ground, with gear, for the first time. The rest is a matter of grading and points (or lack thereof).

rjackson wrote: But FFA just means it went on gear (removable - thus free) without aid. The free portion only means you no longer have to pound a piton - a product of the clean 'style' movement. It doesn't necessarily mean you didn't fall or hang or became frustrated, but you did do the moves and plug the gear.

Sorry, but that is just incorrect. Wrong. Fail. Try Again. Where are you getting your information, again?

Many of the earlier first ascents, particularly for difficult routes, involved a mix of free and aid climbing. As a result, purist free climbers have developed the designation first free ascent (FFA) to acknowledge ascents intentionally made more challenging by using equipment for protection only.
-wiki

It has to do with gear protection versus aid, period. I could list a dozen others, but what's the point. It is what it is. Look it up anywhere.

Hard trad climbers have taken a page from the sport book; thus Sonny Trotter gets listed as the FA of Cobra Crack, instead of what should technically be listed as the FS (first send) or FRP (first red point) or FBATGIC (first badass to get it clean). Unless of course none of the badasses working it ever pulled to the top 'before' Sonny's send...

I'm not really sure how much more I want to debate with you. You have admitted to being fairly new, you are getting all your info from fricking wikipedia, and it is clear that you really don't have a firm grasp on different climbing styles; historically or experiencially.

Here's what was wrong:

"FFA... doesn't necessarily mean you didn't fall or hang or became frustrated."

FFA actually DOES mean that the ascent did NOT fall or hang. Like you said later, it means that the climb was completely absent of any points of artificial aid.

That is all.

So where are you getting your information? What's your resumé?

Cough it up dude. Share...

By admitting to being new, I'm just confessing that I wasn't around when Wiessner pounded pitons on High Exposure.

he's from ohio and probably climbs harder than 3/4 of the people on this message board.

camhead, we do not trust you and your elitist "no fall" ethics!

rjackson wrote:So where are you getting your information? What's your resumé?

Cough it up dude. Share...

By admitting to being new, I'm just confessing that I wasn't around when Wiessner pounded pitons on High Exposure.

I'm getting my information from "not wikipedia." That's where. And your above information that I quoted is simply wrong; at least according to the informal style rules about FFAs that about every climbing area I have been to has ever established.

Here's a conundrum that you can look up for me: Say I am on a climb for the first time, fall, and crater into the ground before the rope catches me. Does that mean that I can get back on the climb, send, and claim the onsight, since I never weighted the rope or gear?

camhead wrote:

rjackson wrote:So where are you getting your information? What's your resumé?

Cough it up dude. Share...

By admitting to being new, I'm just confessing that I wasn't around when Wiessner pounded pitons on High Exposure.

I'm getting my information from "not wikipedia." That's where. And your above information that I quoted is simply wrong; at least according to the informal style rules about FFAs that about every climbing area I have been to has ever established.

Here's a conundrum that you can look up for me: Say I am on a climb for the first time, fall, and crater into the ground before the rope catches me. Does that mean that I can get back on the climb, send, and claim the onsight, since I never weighted the rope or gear?

yes, because you can also climb 10 feet up a route, downclimb to the ground, start over, and still claim on onsite.