RRC Archives

I just hate Dustin for starting the most volatile thread in history. I have been trying to do that for years.

And Ray, you owe Dustin and I a pizza. We brought redriverclimbing.com back from the facebook curse;)

so just trying to distill all of the rambling....

by removing permadraws from selected routes at only the motherlode, the CREW hopes to:

1. improve ethics & style of sport climbers
2. reduce the number of climbers
3. promote responsible climbing

is this basically it? can someone from the CREW clarify me if i'm wrong?

I smell a ho......and a trap

pigsteak wrote:I just hate Dustin for starting the most volatile thread in history. I have been trying to do that for years.

And Ray, you owe Dustin and I a pizza. We brought redriverclimbing.com back from the facebook curse;)

As much as I would love to take credit for this brilliant thread, all glory should be addressed directly to...

The CREW!!!
{DAS CRUE!!!!}

#Occupy the Lode!!!

Good time to line up some advertisers, Ray...

stix wrote:i wasn't out at the lode the day they stripped the gear, but i'm pretty sure hughes took some shit down and (this is a total assumption) sean stripped draws i bet. any bandwagon to jump on will do i suppose. i'm sure there were all kinds of folks out there helping out and not a kamikaze crew in the darkness. like everything else here it's not so black and white as everyone wants to make it out to be.
also, i'm fairly certain they cleaned these routes in the middle of the day and not at night.

Assumptions are a bad thing to make.

Griffin - I am confused as to why climbers climbing on gear they have inspected on the ground and placed themselves is more dangerous than climbers climbing on gear they cannot inspect except when they are on route. There are other routes and crags at the RRG which recieve a comparable amount of traffic and are not equipped with permanently fixed draws. Are these routes a dangerous? Should we hang fixed draws on routes based on yearly traffic? In 2009 I core shot two ropes within two weeks of buying them on fixed steel biners at the RED. Hanging fixed gear on routes based on popularity will ensure that the fixed gear will recieve the maximum amount of wear possible. That means larger funds for perma-draws and a greater effort to inspect them and hang new ones. The reason for fixing draws is two fold- safety and convience. Since the number of climbtek draws available to be hung permanently on routes at the RED is limited does it make sense to hang them on routes which ensure the shortest shelf life for that hardware? Especially when those routes are perfectly safe and easy to clean with permanently fixed cleaning draws? Hanging the climbtek draws in the madness cave where cleaning is more difficult and dangerous and equiping the routes on the undertow with fixed cleaning draws seems like a good compromise to me. TO BE CLEAR EVERY ROUTE ON THE UNDERTOW FROM CONVICTED TO BEAVIS ARE STILL EQUIPPED WITH PERMANENTLY FIXED CHAINS EITHER ON THE ANCHOR OR LEFT FOR THE SAFETY AND CONCINENCE OF CLEANING THE ROUTE.

cletuswilcox wrote:. The reason for fixing draws is two fold- safety and convience. .

No. Let's go ahead and call it for what it is. Convienence only. It's actually MORE dangerous leaving gear on a route. Period. Perma draws are simply for convienence only. If you don't know how to climb/clean a route without permadraws then you should NOT be climbing on your own. There are plenty of great guides in the area, for hire, that will be happy to show you these BASICS to climbing.

cletuswilcox wrote:Removing the perma-draws was not an attempt to make a point. It was a way of re-establishing the ethics of the original developers.

seems to me that TOY made the point that the original developers never intended to equip any routes (even the cave) with perma-draws... so you are contradicting yourself.

cletuswilcox wrote:If you'd honestly be for stripping the cave of perma-draws then please make the case for it. I have been as constructive as I am willingly to be.

I said in my original post to you that I like having the draws pre-hung in the cave... but the point I'm trying to make is where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide which routes get equipped and which don't... If we can make a decision as a community, then I side with the decision of the community even if it inconveniences me... but no one person, and no single "clique" of climbers that considers themselves locals should have the right to make this decision (unless, of course, it's the land owner). If it's black and white (i.e. - no perma-draws, no exceptions...), then fine! But it's not black and white, so I'm just trying to get some definition of the "gray area". If Convicted is still equipped, then why can't Ale-8-One still be equipped? I'd bet they are within 1 degree of steepness of each other... If you can safely clean Ale8, then you can safely clean Convicted. But really, it's not a matter of safety, it's a matter of convenience. You can safely clean any route in the rrg. For the same reason that you want to leave the cave equipped is the same reason any other person has the right to want to leave ale-8 equipped... convenience.

cletuswilcox wrote:I have offered concrete reasons for my actions and clear explanations of what happened on Tuesday. If everyone on this site is going to be as unhelpful as you have been then I am obviously wasting my time.

And all I'm doing is offering concrete reasons for why your reasoning is flawed. You just don't like it because the majority disagrees with you. Get over it. If you don't own the land, and Dario wants to let it up to the community, then it seems the community has spoken, and the community wants perma-draws. So, why do you get to decide which routes gets them and which routes don't? It should be up to the concensus of the community. The question shouldn't even be about what climbs get equipped and which don't... It should be about how WE (together, as a community) manage the perma-draws that are up on routes.

Look, man... I'm not your enemy, I'm your friend... fellow rock climber. You can ask Dave Scott he is a pretty good friend of mine (i'm assuming you know him since you all were stripping the draws together), my name is Todd, and all I want to do is help. But, I'm not about to help strip all the perma-draws if the community doesn't want that. Like I said before, I'm not on one side or the other... I'm on the side of the community, even if I don't agree with the community. I can see both points of view...

Yep, I personally don't care one way or another about PD's I just think its lame 2 or 3 people(sandman, wilcox) think they can decide what is best for the entire community. That sort of attitude just turns people against you. What if I don't think bolts should be placed at all? Does that give me the right to take down every bolt in the red?

EricDorsey wrote:Yep, I personally don't care one way or another about PD's I just think its lame 2 or 3 people(sandman, wilcox) think they can decide what is best for the entire community. That sort of attitude just turns people against you. What if I don't think bolts should be placed at all? Does that give me the right to take down every bolt in the red?

exactly...