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[quote="charlie"]These discussions are so messy. For me to even begin to weigh in I have to draw lines between religion, spirituality, and faith. More often than not from what I've seen you can have faith and spirituality and remain disgusted by religion. That's the column I generally find myself in.

ok, saxman, caribe, shamis, rhunt et al...time to rip charlie a new one for his misguided "spirituality" and 'faith"..... I can't wait to hear the roar of your wrath.

pigsteak, I am pretty sure I never said all people have equal worth, although at birth that is true...and no I can not prove any of this, we already estabished that. What I am saying is this biblical concept that we are all a product of the "fall of man", that we have all "sined and fall short", that we all have a "sin nature", that our "flesh" is bad, etc etc yada yada yada; that is the single most destructive theological brainwashing lie ever to be created by man. Is sure is a nice convenient excuse for when we do make mistakes though. So to quote you piggie "seems like alot of hogwash faith goes into making such broad statements about humankind...". I think people are pretty good and worthy and given a chance to not feel guilty about many of there actions and thoughts, will make good decisions.

Pru, I have been a part of a handful and religious and faith communities and none of them have ever come close to the quality of our climbing community. Just look at how our climbing community responed to Matt and Amy when they were in need, no church I know could ever touch that. Unfortunately a faith community is the only community availible to most people.

pigsteak wrote:hey paul, if there are no souls and it's all dust to dust, why even bother with these organizations you mention? what's the point of helping a neighbor with a hand up?

anyone?

because it affords people some of the same opportunities i've been lucky enough to have.

because it enables people to experience more of life and make choices about their world and their personal beliefs, regardless of what they are.

because it's the only thing i can do with any sort of measurable results. whether there is a heaven and whether i'll make it there is and forever will be unknown to me (beyond that which is faith). however, i can see a smile in a neighbor. i can see pain reduced. in that sense, i see both views, the scientific and the religious, largely satisfied this way.

and while it's not exactly an explanation, it's yet another good example of "this i believe":
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4785079

deirdra sullivan wrote:In my humdrum life, the daily battle hasn't been good versus evil. It's hardly so epic. Most days, my real battle is doing good versus doing nothing.

and maybe this one may more accurately encompass my reasons:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4568464

isabel allende wrote:Give, give, give -- what is the point of having experience, knowledge or talent if I don't give it away? Of having stories if I don't tell them to others? Of having wealth if I don't share it? I don't intend to be cremated with any of it! It is in giving that I connect with others, with the world and with the divine.

riiiight..the climbing community doesn't steal gear, break tables at linda's and bail, ignore leash laws, covertly climb at oil crack, drive on oil well roads after posted signs, not piss in torrent's back yard, consume way more than their share of fossil fuels on road trips, place bolts before finding out who the land belongs too....


talk about living in a glass house and utopian society.

if you have neve met a church family that would respond to disaster within their group the way we helped the tackett's, then I have to wonder aloud where you went. EVERY church I ever went to had a food pantry, rent help, and free clothing for those in need, no questions asked.

this is getting quite ridiculous now..

Dude get a clue...

pigsteak wrote:this is getting quite ridiculous now..

you are just realizing this?

Piggy, let's say you had an itch on your little bristly back that you could not reach. I can get it for you. That is my good deed to you. Now I have a tick buried deep in the fat at the base of my skull, you snag that for me; my blood stains your teeth and you have a little meal in the same go! It is piggy and caribe taking it easy under the midday sun grooming one another in the utter absence of partisan politics. Why ask why we do it? The question is moot. The product of our symbiosis is society and a concomitant moral code. Asking why we are apparently altruistic is circular, we are not homo sapiens without it. Asking how it happened by looking at other social species is a lot more fun and is current research.

I feel a lot better about you after this post.

Since there are all kinds of screwed up people in both groups, it makes any assumptions about either one ridiculous and arguing about them an exercise in absurdity. How do people not learn that talking politics and "religion" on the intardnets is essentially a circlejerk.

The Climbing Community includes traddies, boulderers, chuffers, assholes, gumbies, pipe slingers, philanthropists, thieves, and olde school tutors just as Church Families include christians, jews, buddhists, hindus, muslims, bigots, saints, givers, takers, assholes, lovers, and haters.

This argument is flawed, as the scope of the discussion is so off the hook everyone is chasing their own tails. IMHO religion is a flawed term, but some things fall outside the scope of these terms......



http://www.freehugscampaign.org/

charlie wrote:These discussions are so messy. For me to even begin to weigh in I have to draw lines between religion, spirituality, and faith.

Charlie: you might find this a bit over the top, but I think the hard cores in here are throwing all this together and calling most of it bunk. A case at a time scenario would probably yield a series of dismissals.

Paul: Great Allende quote.

And with this post, this topic pulls into 8th place for longest threads on this board:
1. What are you listening to?
2. The non-climbing photography thread.
3. Climbing photo thread, volume 1
4. Climbing Photo Thread, Vol. 2
5. beating bible-ers
6. What are you reading?
7. The non-climbing photo thread, Vol. 2
8. Adam and Eve hunted dinosaurs!
9. POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF TORRENT FALLS CRAG