PDs at Lode

[cletuswilcox]

DUSTIN- DARIO DOES OWN THE UNDERTOW. ASK HIM

[dustonian]

Oh yeah? Cool! And there we were trying to track down other folks for permission to rebolt. There seems to be some contention on this issue with regard to other local interests, but I am happy to go with your/D's answer.

[chriss]

On a side note the routes on the GMC wall will be stripped of their fixed gear as well. For me removing the perma-draws had nothing to do with excluding any user group based on the difficulty of routes they are climbing or as any broad solution to the many problems facing the local climbing community here at the RRG. It had everything to do with addressing the issue of having fixed gear on easily cleanable routes at the motherlode.

I can only assume that the madness cave will be next? Then the dark side, gold coast, driveby, purgatory and bob marley? From what I recall, all of these walls, especially the BM cave, are equipped with old manky quick draws. Where do you draw the line? You stated that you were going to keep pulling PD's from the load. This choice seems rather arbitrary with at least 5 other crags that meet your criteria - which was what again? At least be consistent.

[cletuswilcox]

Chriss- The intention is to remove the perma-draws from every route where they are not necessary. I think that no more perma-draws will be removed until after some kind of community meeting. Since the climbtek draws were purchased with donated money I'd guess they will be hung on the hardest to clean routes. The routes in the madness cave qualify as far as i can see. If you'd like to suggest a wall which would be more deserving of the climbtek draws I'm all ears.

[climb2core]

Chriss- The intention is to remove the perma-draws from every route where they are not necessary. I think that no more perma-draws will be removed until after some kind of community meeting. Since the climbtek draws were purchased with donated money I'd guess they will be hung on the hardest to clean routes. The routes in the madness cave qualify as far as i can see. If you'd like to suggest a wall which would be more deserving of the climbtek draws I'm all ears.

climb2core- I've been just about as nice as Im prepared to be on this thread. Make another threat towards me or anyone else, such as cutting our ropes and you'd better be prepared to back it up.

Ha Ha... Cletus, I am not the enemy you think I am. I think you misunderstood what I was saying, but I can see why based upon the back lash against you and the crew.

Here is the full context of what was said:

I am concerned now gumballs & Euro visitors will start bailing directly through the new glue-ins on the Undertow and wear through the stock at crux bolts.

Now that you mention it, that worries me too. Since the bolts are rounded and don't have a hard edge, I can certainly foresee people lowering directly through the bolt. Over time, that's not gonna be good.

Let's come to a community consensus - if we see anyone doing this, then we make a point of publicly humiliating them.

My comments were not directed at the CREW, but instead at anyone who might be repeatedly lowering through glue ins. For the record, I am not against what you guys did (once) as it served as a catalyst to bring the community together to discuss something that needs addressing. Also, I am not a big fan of PD's for the same reasons you are. They are commonly mis-used and not really needed. My vote is for fixed gear on very steep (ie Madness), Cleaning gear on moderate steep, and anchors only (if that) on less than steep.

[ynp1]

The CREW has gotten soft! NOW they are waiting for a community meeting??? Is this going to be like a RRGCC meeting or a drunken night around a fire like the first CREW meeting...

I hope the latter.

Stick to your guns boys, don't give into the folks on the interweb...

[cletuswilcox]

THB- We didnt remove the draws from the Madness cave because we agreed that that wall would be the appropriate place for the climbtek draws which were purchased by donation. Removing the perma-draws was not an attempt to make a point. It was a way of re-establishing the ethics of the original developers. I'm glad you're projecting something in the cave. good for you. If you'd honestly be for stripping the cave of perma-draws then please make the case for it. I have been as constructive as I am willingly to be. I have offered concrete reasons for my actions and clear explanations of what happened on Tuesday. If everyone on this site is going to be as unhelpful as you have been then I am obviously wasting my time.

[graniteclimber]

Make the case for stripping the Madness? There is no case to be made... only action. You boys have shown us the light!!!

I love it. The .13 hangdogs are sick of the .12 hangdogs. It's a brave new sport climbing world.

[cletuswilcox]

Graniteclimber- what's your name?

[dustonian]

Just a quick note: I'm all for preserving the "ethics of the original developers," but sometimes ethics must change to adjust to changes in the environment. For instance, we no longer pound and clean pins on everything in Yosemite, because we have cool hybrid cams, cam hooks, and because pin scars suck. We also no longer lower to the ground and pull the rope every time we fall. We now rap-bolt instead of doing everything ground-up and installing ghey bolt ladders from hooks. In the case of the Motherlode, the crag is now an international destination and exponentially more crowded than when it was originally developed (in fall and spring anyway).

Because of this, PDs can be argued to make sense on SOME routes because (1) aluminum draws inevitably show up on the wall and get heinously sharp, and (2) weaker climbers dogging to the top (or bailing through glue ins ) and everyone cleaning the routes over and over again is much slower and likely to be more dangerous, statistically speaking. In fact, it is important to note that PDs were not "added" to the wall last year, but simply put on the wall as replacements to jingus sharp aluminum draws left on many routes over the years. It is my personal opinion that over time the same cycles will be repeated again.