RRC Archives

Maybe we should start a new post addressing dogs at crags in relation to access issues? I think that dogs not being allowed at crags ties right into all the problems we have been having. Banning dogs will not help our access issues. It's the people/owners who are the problem. The major reasons for the closure or RS was because of the over crowding, bolting, and permadraws without permission. If you have respectful people who aware of their actions and how it will effect their surroundings/access then you won't have a dog problem either. Our problem undoubtedly lies in human action, which is where we should be focusing our attention. Dog banning is a short term solution to a much larger issue.

I'm not saying this because I own a dog, it's because I think education is a much better and more effective solution. If the problem is coming from people treating crags like a gym, then send fliers or pamphlets to gyms about how our actions directly effect access. Put up signs at the Kiosks/Miguel's/True North/Linda's/etc illustrating the direct effect that our actions have caused to our access. Something like big red Xs though crags that have been closed with bullet-ed pts under why they are no longer open, then under tell what 'you as an individual' can do to help prevent this from happening. Encourage the gym employees or owners to discuss crag safety/ethics with their members. Then, when you're at a crag, make people feel like a**holes for potentially being a future reason for the closure of a crag. I think we have a right to call people out and 'be that guy', especially if they are risking access. I know that not everyone who ventures to the Red will have taken the time to educate themselves, but I don't see how it can hurt to try.

I would be more than willing to put in my time, money, and efforts in making these signs or whatever is seen fit (if this seems like a good idea). I would just need some help from people who know all the history and true reasons behind crag closures. Maybe from the RRGCC? I don't want to tack on any more responsibility to you guys because I know you have your hands full, but I also won't progress this idea without your permission.

Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs. F*ckin' up the scenery, breakin' my mind. Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign.

Universal - nice post.

Signs suck, but shit under your favorite climbs sucks more. Last summer, Rick Bost and I posted some friendly signs to teach/remind climbers about potty etiquette at the crags (I'm happy to forward a copy for anyone). While this approach didn't solve the issue, we did see some improvements in "hot spots".

Many people simply just don't know.

I encourage anyone teaching a university rock climbing class to please teach ethics at the crags along with your knot tying. And kudos to you if you already do. I'd love to hear the methods as I know that some of the instructors are/have been environmental educators.

Maybe it's time to get gyms on board with pushing Leave No Trace ethics or to get an RRGCC/LNT-backed program going for teaching.

My favorite quote from Apollo 13: "Work the problem!"

UniversalRhythm wrote: Then, when you're at a crag, make people feel like a**holes for potentially being a future reason for the closure of a crag. I think we have a right to call people out and 'be that guy', especially if they are risking access. I know that not everyone who ventures to the Red will have taken the time to educate themselves, but I don't see how it can hurt to try.

I don't think this really works. I have been that guy in a couple of situations with dog owners both at Muir and Little Rock City. In both cases after pleading/cajoling and mentioning numerous times the risk of access for all, the dog owners ignored us.

As I said, a quandary. Do you narc to the landowners and further perhaps closure? I might have mentioned it to the Weber's had we seen them that day. Get into fisticuffs and whip all parties? Bring out the kimbers and make a Citizen's arrest?


We are talking RS here easy to strip routes and draws, & the OP mentions dogs dig holes and erode (not to mention piss/crap, hope "doggie bags" are on those signs), part of the issue @ torrent was the hounds, 2, remember?

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtop ... =11&t=6648

I think people STILL continued to leave dogs in car/etc after this when we stayed there and talked to the Tacketts.


You are right about people being the impact, imo bring roves to the crags is furthering the impact. Visual, auditory, waste, etc, there were several dog bites this winter where we crag. So if it truly is about lessening impact, less "beings" is a good place to start...

I see so many climbers here at LOTA. If I have them, I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to share the rules and guidelines with our guests in a relaxed enviroment where they won't feel scolded or called out in front of their friends. When I saw the post about the group from Metrorock that was at Military, I called the coaches in and we talked for about a half hour. They didn't get mad or embarassed, they just confessed that they didn't know. Yes they should have found out the rules of the forest service, but lets face it folks, we,(me included), don't always do our homework before a road trip. I got called out at Table Rock once for having a fire when there was a state wide ban. I didn't know and didn't see any signs on any of the roads in. I don't want to be "that guy", and I believe most climbers don't either. Thank God it was a fellow climber that informed me and not a Ranger!

I lived in the parking lot at Muir Valley for almost a year while I was working for Rick and Liz. More times than not, I saw people stroll right past the infomation board as they raced to get to the cliff. YES, keep the signs in the parking lots, but lets add ALL of the climber friendly campgrounds as well. By the time people get to the parking lots, they only have one thing on their mind.
I agree with Art that most people are good and will do the right thing if they know what it is. (I am using the two years as manager of a climber friendly campground as my source of information)

We operate on the honor system here for payment. Sometimes folks space out and forget to pay, but on their return trip, they make it up. I even had someone call to get the address and mail $20 to us because they forgot to pay. These are climbers mind you.

As far as impact goes, the only way I can think to lessen it is to give the areas time to recover.

So please, please, please, get me the info about the regulations for the private climbing areas and if there is anything from the FS. I will make a very nice area to display them where everyone that comes here will see and hopefully we can make the good people a little gooder!

You da man, Eric!

"First they came…" is a famous statement attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.

How in the world do you justify using a statement about the radical extermination of human beings by other human beings to scold climbers. How high is that horse you are riding on. If it is a climbing area then manage it as such with all the headaches and problems that exist in todays very crowded world. If it is a private Nature Preserve and that's what you want it to be then shut it down for good and so be it. You own it, it's yours to do with what you please. I have climbed in a ton of places and met hundreds and hundreds of climbers. Mostly they are very respectful of each other, the land, the enviroment etc. Just like any segment of society there are a few bad eggs and that can usually be resolved. Most of the folks I have met in the Red over 20 years have done something directly or indirectly to try and help climbing improve in any way they can.
Make the decisions, suck it up and take the heat but quit with all the self righteous B.S. Climbers accusing other climbers of whatever greivence serves no good purpose. If you got the bucks to buy your own crag so it can remain the way it was 30 years ago then go for it. Most folks don't have that luxury. I tried to get locals interested in buying the Crag in S. Indiana and nobody stepped up. Guess what, private owner = no climbing allowed. Drapers Bluff in S. Illinois, private owner = no climbing. Torrent, Roadside same deal.
Maybe private ownership isn't such a good thing in the long run. If lots of climbers own the areas then they all feel some ownership and some responsibility to make it work. Anyway please don't compare boom boxes, permadraws and dogs to anything remotely as horrible as the outright slaughter of innocent human beings by a Nazi mad man.

A few highlights from this thread so far, for those who don't want to read all of the posts:

caribe wrote:Climbers busted grapes at Roadside trail days recently. I just don't think this forum has been very fair to Mike Driskell for one, who organized the trail day and to the volunteers who accomplished a shit ton of work at RS.

People didn't know permas were not permitted. So they will be removed.
There was a miscommunication about route development. Hopefully that gets cleared up.
There were too many people doing stuff that was just too odd, so access will can be controlled somehow. Perhaps more signage is needed at the entrance.
Using Roadside to Lionize the community is not in climbing's best interest. Hopefully problems can be identified and solved and we can all go on enjoying climbing. Roadside is an example of a crag that many people love and care for and an example of smart land use. I hope a deal can be struck between the owners and the users to keep it open.

Toad wrote:Do you realize how long it took me to type that last post? Do you know how many times I had to hit the backspace key?

Rocky Top wrote:I don't think this really works. I have been that guy in a couple of situations with dog owners both at Muir and Little Rock City. In both cases after pleading/cajoling and mentioning numerous times the risk of access for all, the dog owners ignored us.

As I said, a quandary. Do you narc to the landowners and further perhaps closure? I might have mentioned it to the Weber's had we seen them that day. Get into fisticuffs and whip all parties? Bring out the kimbers and make a Citizen's arrest?


We are talking RS here easy to strip routes and draws, & the OP mentions dogs dig holes and erode (not to mention piss/crap, hope "doggie bags" are on those signs), part of the issue @ torrent was the hounds, 2, remember?

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtop ... =11&t=6648

I think people STILL continued to leave dogs in car/etc after this when we stayed there and talked to the Tacketts.

I'm sorry that you've ran into people who are so thoughtless. I think the majority of the people will listen if you bring it up in a polite way and I have seen that multiple times first hand. Like Stephanie and Eric said, often times it's just from lack of knowledge. I'm sorry that you met the outliers. I have a hard time believing (but believe you) that people actually brought their dogs to LRC and Muir since there are clear bans on dogs at both of those locations. In that case, yes I think you should notify the owners especially if you have already talked to the party breaking the rules and they refuse to care. They are clearly disobeying the set rules and think the owners would appreciate it. I recall the OP mentioning dogs digging holes, and if Grant and John decide to ban dogs RS I will fully understand and support that decision. What we say here doesn't matter because we don't own it. I'm more trying to discuss solutions to the big picture problem.

I think doggie bags on signs/kiosks is a great idea! If there is a solution right in front of people where they have to do very little work it tends to be more effective. I know I have an abundance of grocery bags that I would be more than willing to help stock the kiosk or whatever with. I'm sure tons of other people would donate their bags as well.

As far as Torrent goes, I believe the new official closing to the public of Torrent wasn't due to dogs, it was due to people. They banned dogs and people still found a way to piss off the people residing at Torrent enough to cause them ban it from the public:

Clevis Hitch wrote:Nope, now its "double closed". It seems that someone took one two many shits on the land owner and he's had enough of this shit and he's closed it. We the self-policing climbing managers have closed torrent to the public. No more climbing (or shitting) for free. You have to rent a cabin, and even the you are responsible to dispose of your own shit.

(http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtop ... 11&t=13933) <--not that what is discussed in this post is from Dr. Bob's mouth, so it's not verified information.

Perhaps we need doggie bags for humans too? (haha)

Rocky Top wrote:You are right about people being the impact, imo bring roves to the crags is furthering the impact. Visual, auditory, waste, etc, there were several dog bites this winter where we crag. So if it truly is about lessening impact, less "beings" is a good place to start...

I agree and think education is a good place to start as well

UniversalRhythm wrote:Perhaps we need doggie bags for humans too? (haha)

They exist... they are called Wag Bags... See below...

http://www.rei.com/product/662978/clean ... kage-of-12

It would be awesome if we could get a grant from the Access Fund to get a bunch of these to distribute for use at the Red... It'd be even more awesome if people just purchased them on their own, and felt that it was their own responsible to pack out their waste!