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dustonian wrote:Where was this bad-ass, highly ethical CREW when Andrew & Mike, Dave L, Roger, Matt, Sean and I were out busting ass on the Undertow, sweatin our ballz off and developing heinous cases of gig-butt & sunburn on the burliest days of summer?? I still have eczema from all that epoxy!

some of the best irony so far is that, to the best of my knowledge, some of your crew and the CREW are one in the same. this shit is hysterical on so many levels

weber wrote:I used to think the best oxymoron was "military intelligence."

Now I'm convinced it is "climbers' ethics."

Oh shit. Rick's got some zingers. Nice job, Rick!

reply....lol, not a worry at all Nick.....this is the place to share and sling. trust me, if I got my feelings hurt, I would have been gone a long time ago....

now, about that phone number.....614-........

THB wrote:

Toy wrote:

dustonian wrote:Good news! The mega-long draws up high threw me.

After JM did the FA on The Madness, and Jean-Paul Finney got the second, I wanted to try it. Had to hang the draws. Cleaned them at the end of the day and hung them again next time I went out. Not even cave routes were bolted with perma-draws in mind.

Toy, I thought that you did the FA of The Madness??

Hey Toy, maybe you should put out an online tutorial about how to hang draws while leading and how to clean them when you're done, because it seems like everyone is baffled by how to do this... make sure to include how to clean draws from the cave because i think everyone is really baffled by that one... as i recall, "Michelle, do I really need to explain why we didn't strip the cave"...maybe my quote is not exactly correct, but you get my point...

Way WAY back when, there was a sub-anchor on the Madness where JM stopped. I just used Porter's bolts to go to the top.

Oh, and cleaning in the cave is as simple as a TR burn at the end of the day. Consider it a training burn and it won't seem like such a pain in the ass.

Tutorial complete. Go about your business.

stix wrote:some of the best irony so far is that, to the best of my knowledge, some of your crew and the CREW are one in the same. this shit is hysterical on so many levels

Really? None of these dudes on DAS KRÜ were on the reboltin' posse as far as I know, sounds like more of the night KREW to me:

cletuswilcox wrote:...Peter McDermott, Zac Sands, Dave Rowland, Chris Snyder, Dave Scott and myself (all of whom were a part of removing perma-draws from the undertow)...

It would have been super sweet if they could have removed the old bolts on Harvest and patched holes on other routes as they scurried by and stripped the draws on every route, but whatev. There are even patching materials stashed out there! I also wonder if they left Andrew and Mike's working lines or dropped them and took them to Miguel's or what.

And you're right, this shit is hysterical on many deep and complex levels. I am concerned now gumballs & Euro visitors will start bailing directly through the new glue-ins on the Undertow and wear through the stock at crux bolts. We decided to go with the big beefy insanely-overkill 8mm stock (a special manufacturing run from Isaac and others, requiring 5/8" holes and lots of epoxy) expressly because of this concern... but I was comforted by the ease of bailing from PDs on most Lode routes and also by the fact that quicklinks mate so nicely with the round eye of the glue-ins (eliminating the hanger-gouging-the-quicklink/biner hazard).

Oh well, it was a nice thought... time for more signage or something on the bailing through the bolt issue now. I hate friggin signage.

Toy wrote:Oh, and cleaning in the cave is as simple as a TR burn at the end of the day. Consider it a training burn and it won't seem like such a pain in the ass.

Tutorial complete. Go about your business.

cletuswilcox wrote:Michelle, do you really need me to explain to you why we didn't clean the madness cave. If you'd like to clean it please be sure to leave cleaning draws well placed cleaning draws on the routes.

Cletus, you were saying...

yes, i'd like you to please explain why you didn't strip the madness cave as well... oh, and no need for those "well placed cleaning draws" either (see Toy's in-depth tutorial for why cleaning draws are unnecessary)... (any my project is in the cave, so i'm biased towards keeping the draws up there, note the subtle spray!) ... but if you are going to do something to make a point, then go all out and strip the whole lode, not just part of it...

"hey guys lets strip the undertow wall because i've sent everything on that wall, so it doesn't matter"

"yea, but lets leave the draws up in the cave because i'm still working some stuff in there... and it would be a pain [but not impossible] to clean the cave routes"

"hmmm... sounds like a great idea... it'll inconvenience everyone who's projecting something on the undertow and it'll decrease the crowds on that wall so that when I want to warm up on Chainsaw or Ale-8 I don't have to wait to get on it... but then it won't inconvenience me when I want to get on my sick proj in the cave"

was this a little how your planning meeting went down before deciding to strip the draws from the lode?? how come you all get to decide who all is inconvenienced and who is not... if i'm projecting ale-8, and i want to put SAFE STEEL project draws up on ale-8, and the land owner is okay with it... then i should have that right just as much as anyone projecting anything harder...

i wasn't out at the lode the day they stripped the gear, but i'm pretty sure hughes took some shit down and (this is a total assumption) sean stripped draws i bet. any bandwagon to jump on will do i suppose. i'm sure there were all kinds of folks out there helping out and not a kamikaze crew in the darkness. like everything else here it's not so black and white as everyone wants to make it out to be.
also, i'm fairly certain they cleaned these routes in the middle of the day and not at night.

Trust me, the sentences I am fixing to type sound as absurd and petty in my head as they should to you in print. Over the last few days I have been asked by the guilty parties of all sides of the latest round of drama going on around the Red , as to just what my opinion on the matter is.

First, why in the hell would my opinion matter ? I cant climb anytime soon because of injuries, I did not frequent the place that is in question. Out of the 12 or so years I have been climbing in the Red I have climbed with as many people as I can count on my 19 digits, so finding places that are not crowded have never been an issue to me. I have been a strong proponent of keeping sport climbs safe, trad lines spicy as nature allows, trying to take care of the land that surrounds the cliffs more than the goofy lines on the wall and a huge supporter of if you aint hurting or bothering me I dont give a shit what you do or how you do it.

Second, the actual land that is in question is private land. The land owner has final say, period.... Let this be another lesson showing that no matter how much money you raise for a private area, no matter how many trails days you have, how cool the area is, how amped the owner of the land may be at the time or how big of a johnson you have while sending your proj....that can all change in a blink of an eye. The owner can close it at their will, they can strip the bolts, they can strip the draws, they can hang big long pink draws, they can use aluminum foil anchor bolts, you will become old and it wont work no more and they could make you rappel on a strippers pole if they so desire. The point Im trying to make is that we cannot as a community ever count on private land to be there or to stay as it currently is. Muir, Torrent, Zoo, Motherload and may I mention Roadside are subject to the owners discretion and mood at anytime.

The answer to the current problem is easy, on Dario’s land its Dario’s decision. If he decides to leave it in the communities hands, then so be it, lets hope we are able to find a happy gray area that always exists. But in the end even if that does happen, he could change his mind at any second and in my very strong opinion has the right to do so. The only land that cannot be taken away from us is the PMRP and that has its own issues we are all aware of, but this is not the place to discuss that. Just remember throughout this rant that climbing on any land is a privilege and is not a God given right of this country and our founding fathers, treat it as so, it could be taken away tomorrow...

But back to the question as a whole. I was asked my opinion, and generally I give my opinion even if not asked. So I broke down and un-retired myself from the Internet climbing scene I once was completely immersed in but had to step away from to avoid drama such as this. I dont do things in moderation, so its either turned off or Im all in...So I did what any respectable shit talker would do, I opened up a few cold ones, made sure I was safe as possible and dove right in reading the rants and getting my blood boiling at all sides with each post I read.

At first I was thinking, yeah, same arguments, mostly the same people, not worth my time since the answer to the exact question at hand has already been answered, its Dario’s land.....

But then as I pondered on the issue it quickly became apparent that the acts were touching a much larger issue and in all reality is just the straw that broke the camels back. The Red and its areas are getting loved to death and everyone reading this or even thinking of reading this is to blame. You should punch yourself now...hard and in the nuts(or other sensitive areas as required by nature)

As a community and an area we have been growing for years and years. No one has written a book on how to develop a sustainable recreation area such as we are blessed with and whats even crazier is that literally the entire climbing world is watching what we do and in all reality, coming to see how we do it. Not only do we have the visitors seeing and coming but we have every agency that can help or hurt us at a local, state and national level seeing what and how we react. How can we fight as a user group to not only keep areas open but ask for money to help preserve/repair areas, request other private owners keep their areas open/open new ones and so on if we cant find two legs to stand on out of many.

There is no right and wrong answer, in the end both sides are trying to protect the area they love and both groups have had a huge hand in creating the monster thats literally eating its own foot.

I have very strong agreements and disagreements with both sides. I am very proud of the people that cared enough about the area to raise money , do a shit ton of hard work and do what they truly thought was a good thing for everyone involved. But, I am also proud of the people that stood up for what they believe in and in my opinion were not only making a statement about the perma draws but were also raising the issue of the bigger problem that we are facing as an area...loving it to death with no end in sight. But again, I do truly believe both groups were doing what they think were right but both could have been handled differently and created less drama.

We have two very black and white groups that need to find the gray area in the middle, which I think will happen as it has with all the other issues we have faced as a community. One thing I do feel very strong about is as an area we have to find that stopping point where we put our foot down and say enough is enough, this is rock climbing, you can get hurt, you will get your feelings smashed and in general the sport needs to buck the current trend of everyones a winner and return to a little bit of its roots and weed out the people that really just dont belong in the air and out of the gym.

Within our type of community we have extremely strong minded individuals that are very outspoken , opinionated and in all reality very egotistical. When I first started climbing and to this day, the biggest draw , well other than being in nature, is the F'you attitude that once was apart of almost every climber I know. Thats been lost to the lower the challenge to the lowest common denominator and everyone gets a star mentality of our current society.

A strong statement was made by the removal of the draws , but a strong statement was also made by hanging them to begin with. Its like that old saying, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A simple blog post complaining about the issue would and has in the past proven ineffective. The actual act has brought a lot of influential minds to the table that may have not been brought together any other way. Could it have been handled differently, yes absolutely, both the hanging and the removal could have. But since it wasnt its how we get past that will either show how we have grown as an area or how we have regressed...

From her on we will try to ignore the obvious answer to this particular question, once again being Dario owns the land , and act as if it was open land where we as a group should be able to self govern, possibly touching on more than the perma draw question and hitting what in my opinion has everyone chasing tail and riled up.

As a route developer and speaking for other developers we have had as much gear taken off routes as was removed from the load just in the last few years, why doesnt that make a big stink ? I know, not really the issue at hand but what Im getting at is from the standpoint of knowing exactly how it feels to get your hard work and expensive gear yanked. If the group keeps the gear knowing all that gear was funded by the community they are stealing and any point they had tried to make is null and void. Return the gear fellas...

Another thing that needs to be made certain. All climbs on Forest Service land cannot have fixed draws. If there are still routes with fixed draws , they need to be taken down. Black/White...

Now to get the opinion of perma draws out of the way. I wont waste time by beating around the bush and trying to sound like a politician. I am not a fan of them at all. Of course I have never been a project climber and focused mainly on moving up through the grades and generally being able to do whatever grade I was on at the time in a few goes. I also chase choss and slabs, so really , my opinion dont count. But with that said I also see a gray area as normally exists. I can admit that some routes need a fixed cleaning biner for pure safety and convenience sake but other than that draws need to be hung as you go, learn how to use a stick clip or know how to get out of a situation or better yet how to read the routes to limit being in over your head before you leave the ground.

Also, call it selfish but I do not want to see all that tat on the walls. We already have chalk, denuded bases, dogs everywhere, radios, colored chalk, people from ohio and so on and so on to deal with. I personally and selfishly do not like seeing it and go climbing purely to be in nature, basically, its annoying to me. But again, I go where there are no people, so its usually not an issue.

When I was just starting climbing having all climbs perma drawed would have kicked ass at that time. But looking back , Im glad they were not there, it taught me how to be responsible for myself. And now I would hate to see this spread to all outdoor climbs and we all know once the body hits the slip and slide it cant stop till it hits the end. So why even take that first sprint when the end is a brick wall ?

With that said, I dont climb at the load or on steep routes. My guess is every single person that took the draws down have clipped fixed gear at the load and other places.....if only because its almost always been there. So in knowing each of you and knowing you dont want to be a hypocrite, I ask where is the line drawn ? I would hope your going to practice what you preach and continue to hang your own as you go, every single one... Its like chopping a route, if you do chop one, you better chop that shit on lead or your being like that dad that says dont smoke as hes packing his box of reds. But if the folks that took the draws down continue to clip draws in place I would have to ask the logic behind letting the inevitable cheap ass leaver draws stay up tied to sun bleached webbing and not replacing them for extended times with good gear. Again, I dont do steep and have already made it apparent, I dont like or see the need in 99% of the fixed draws, so in all reality I dont have a dog in the fight other than aesthetics and access issues . But there is a gray area and needs to be found.

To me this last act is bringing to the table much bigger issues than whether perma draws are on a route or not. The issues that need brought up and figured out is how as a community we are going to sustainably develop/manage the area to handle the traffic its going to get. The words been out there, the people are coming, we can sit back and talk about the old time(even though most of you that are doing this were not here then), who to blame(we all are, every single one of us, not even worth arguing) or we can react by putting action to words(which was actually done by the hanging and removal crew)....

Let us use this incident as the catalyst that allows us to work together to find the happy medium and apply our energies to things that are not only affecting us as a user group but greatly affecting the lands under our feet that we have all proven we love to death. Make sure the trails we use are sustainable, make sure the bases of our climbs can handle the impact before you bolt the line, if it cant either fix it first or maybe that route dont need bolted. Limit the number of moderate climbs at an area, if a parking lot is full go to another area, limit your group size. Speak up if people are doing things that will jeopardize the access to the area , be the asshole we all know you can be. And so on and so on...

I could write ten more pages on the issues we are having as an area and how I think we need to deal with them but Im tired, the buzz is wearing off and I have to get ready to go to a meeting tomorrow with other land managers, the Forest Service and many State and National agencies about recreation areas, its abuses and the exact problems we are trying to deal with here on our own land.

I was asked my opinion, I gave it. In the end whats more important than what I or anyone thinks is if we can use this problem to get stronger as a community or if we are just going to turn it into who has the biggest johnson and in the end just make us all look like idiots. Use the energy that has been created to help, cause if you dont, your as big of the problem as the people you are whining about.....

I started a slightly different poll on the application of fixed gear over here: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtop ... 69#p248269

Please contribute your 2 cents.

pigsteak wrote:and for gawd's sake, quit saying the draws were stolen...

If I take your car, drive it to the other side of the red, and leave the keys in it with a note explaining where I took it from....

....that's not stealing, right?