RRC Archives

ScrmnPeeler wrote:I like my old worn "in" Kong 8. Is that stupid or Old Skool?

I've seen you belay with Gri-Gri. I'd feel safer with figure 8

I prefer the Trango Cinch over the Gri-Gri. It's smaller, lighter, and costs less. It fits well in my hand and it's super easy to pay out slack. It does have a few drawbacks though. It's more difficult to lower than when using a Gri-gri and it locks up so easily that if you short rope your climber you're gonna have a difficult time releasing it to pay out slack again.

That being said, after you gain some experience with the device, these difficulties all but go away.

I should mention, however, that the Cinch is NOT a beginner's device. Aside from the difficulties I mentioned earlier, if you thread the Cinch backwards it will not work (whereas a backward fed Gri-gri will still function like an ATC).

pigsteak wrote:rhunt...pobray just gave us his story of decking with an ATC....

that story doesn't really count because the fall happen when the climber was off belay. If you unclip the rope from the belay device in order to switch sides the rope is running through the device, then you really don't have a belay.

Actually I came close to decking while being belayed by and ATC years ago at Torrent. My belayer was irritating me all day with nonstop gabbing and chatting with people while I was climbing and not hearing me when I called for slack, rope to clip, take, etc. I got to the top of some o'poopie' route, clipped the anchor and called for take but again she was to busy chatting with someone at the base to hear me. LOL I was stupid enough to take the gamble and jump thinking it would teach her and lesson and scar her a little. Well she freaked and dropped the brake hand for a split second but recovered it in time to stop my fall. Then of course she had to nerve to angry at me ...chics

rhunt wrote:These days I usually use a gri gri, these days I usually sport climb with experience climbers/belayers. That said, I would say a gri gri is the least safest device given all the stats resently. I am trying to think of a story of someone decking while being belayed with as ATC. When I multi-pitch trad climb(or multi-pitch sport climb), I use a stitch-plate (ATC) type device bacause they work well for rapelling.

Gri Gri's are not safer, all belay devices are safe, they all arrest and hold all kinds of falls if used propery. Gri Gri's are just trendy and nice to use because you don't need to use your brake hand to hold a climber while they rest while working moves on thier proj.

Oh and I like that Meadows brought up going in direct. I am always having to teach people to do that. I give them a draw and a brush and tell them to go in direct when resting and brush holds. Do that!

So if used properly in a situation where the belayer passes out or lets go of the break for various reasons; you are saying Gri-Gris aren't "safer" (more safe)???

I think that it is obvious that the Gri-Gri has a built in margin of safety. And I believe that the statement should have gone like this.

No belay device is completely safe, however the Gri-Gri does provide a margin of safety that the tube device cannot in certain situations.

SUM for lead belay
ATC for toprope belay

The belay device is NOT the most improtant component on the belay end of the rope.

NEVER STOP LEARNING

my problem with the gri gri is not with the device itself... but rather the training that goes with it. I presented on this topic this past year at the conference for the Association for Outdoor Recreation and Education.

with the munter hitch, the parallel pull-pinch-slide method works and it was taught that we should never release the brake hand. this was the main point of weakness.

then we moved to the atc and the brake hand must never leave the rope philosophy stayed, but the old pull-pinch-slide method was over time replaced to the more current method of keeping the brake hand low and in the strongest position possible (palm down). it took years for this method to be accepted as the norm... and some still teach the old method as the best... which is a holdover from the munter and hip belay days. it is a lack of knowledge justified by tradition.

now we have the gri gri, where the brake hand mantra and and the "new" atc method is still practiced. However, the gri-gris biggest point of failure besides improper loading is when the cam is defeated. So we need to change our training methodology again to let folks know to not defeat the cam... which means teaching to not use your strongest grip (thumb) to hold the cam for paying out slack, not pulling the lever until the person's full weight is on the rope, not using the guide hand overly vigilantly, and then lastly using the brake hand as a backup to the cam.

as for the improper loading thing... i would think that you can improperly load an atc as well... by not checking to make sure you clipped the biner through the bight. a simple visual exam by both partners and a quick pull check will remedy either an atc or gri-gri improper load.

the gri gri is a great tool, and it's benefits for rescues and guiding are way more numerous than the atc... but if you train somebody to use a gri gri just like you did the atc, then that is your fault, not the device.

as to the complacency brought on by the gri gri... that's like blaming alcohol for alcoholism. i have personally witnessed several folks making mistakes with the atc, resulting in dropped climbers. I have seen even more near misses. I have also seen the gri-gri be used improperly... but how are any of these the devices fault?

know your device... use it well. know it's strengths and weaknesses. have safe fun.

Thanks everyone. Gotta love a forum!

I'm still waiting on Charlie to show us some stacked pads but I agree with pawilkes ATC-xp for trad gri-gri for sport and TR runs, I learned to rap and belay first without devices ( just some well placed wash cloths for rapping) so I have always appreciated belay plates and recreational sex and drugs

What a bunch of sissies. I prefer the retro charm of a hip belay.

I prefer Allison Kraus. She's seriously hot.