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I was there saturday and saw dumb people, lots and lots of dumb people, they stood around in groups at the parking lot and made it somewhat interesting to park considering they were too dumb to move... I like the parking lot full- move on concept.

jamlawyer wrote: It's hard to understand why people can't follow the rules that are clearly posted and that they agree to when signing the waiver. If they violate the dog leash rule and are warned, their access should be revoked. Please everyone, don't risk an incredible climbing location by violating the rules. Thank you, Webers, for bringing these problems to our attention so we can all help enforce the rules.

Question: How can the Webers (or anyone owning climbing land) limit access to the property? Seems pretty hard to secure that size of a property.

Seems like climber have two options: 1. Leash Dog at all times 2. Leave dog home.

Can we all just agree to enforce the ethic here?

I love my dog, that is why I bring her climbing. It may be dangerous, but she, being much like her owner, would likely rather get injured doing something she loves than slipping in the safety of her own home. I consider her a very good crag dog, one who has never received a complaint (that I know of) by another climber. She doesn't bark, fight, or behave obnoxiously at the crag. If someone has a problem with winnie, tell me, and I'll do what I can. I am sorry but I am not going stop bringing her.

However, I have nothing but the highest respect for the Webbers and truly appreciate that they have not made a no dog rule yet. Because I thought that she was well behaved I never understood the dog rules, so yes I am guilty of not always having her on the leash at Muir. For that I apologize, it will not happen again. However, I beg you, for my sake and hers, to allow us to keep climbing at Muir. I will try (as we all should) try to politely help enforce these rules at MV. Torrent has set the example, I think most climbers will comply if asked.

to other dog owners, I know its hard, but don't bring your dog if it is violent or hasn't been trained.

to the rest of you in this forum, get off the dog hatting band waggon. There are fewer bad dog owners out there than good ones. Rational conversation goes farther than abrasive lecturing.

oh, WE may be able to agree on an ethic but A) there are lots of people who climb that don't read this site, and there are lots of people who come to the red with only small bits of information and B) there are people who choose to ignore the rules and regulations that are agreed apon by other people. I think talking to people if they are breaking the rules and telling them why they suck (tactfully of course) is the best way to solve the problem. Maybe people could volunteer to walk around on busy days to tell people whats up, or stay at the parking lot in the morning and talk to people (ie dog owners) about the rules, why they are in place and the consequences if they don't follow them.

It would clearly be difficult and not perfect, but if someone is caught by the webers or their representative(s) with their dog off leash, they could advise them their access is revoked and send an email confirmation to the address they gave when they signed up. Then, if that person is caught on the property again, it would be trespassing. I'm not saying the Webers have time to police the property and, clearly, they don't, but just if they (or someone on their behalf) happen to catch someone. There must be consequences to rules in order for them to be effective and the possibility of their access being revoked might be enough to keep some from breaking the rules. It would just seem easier for them to climb somewhere else. Of course, there will always be rule breakers. And, we all need to be better about enforcing the rules as you suggest. I have been guilty of not speaking up and saying "the rules of muir valley require you to leash your dog and you are risking all of our access by violating them". But, I will in the future and if everyone did that, it would likely help. Of course, the no dog rule will likely be the end result and, clearly, the easiest to enforce since some people will have their dogs on leashes in the parking lot and then let them run free at the crag.

Maybe a sign that reads, "Unleashed dogs will be considered wild animals and will be shot on site." This would have to be in 20 languages and braille of course.

As a suggestion, a non abrasive way to let people know they need to put there dog on a leash is to bring up torrent and the possibility of loosing another extraordinary gift. Its a clear example so I don't think people would argue, it would allow one to be polite yet get the point across.

"Unleashed dogs will be considered wild animals and will be shot on site." This would have to be in 20 languages and braille of course.
works at hp40!

Saxman wrote:Maybe a sign that reads, "Unleashed dogs will be considered wild animals and will be shot on site." This would have to be in 20 languages and braille of course.

This is my personal belief as well.

If a dog that is not mine walked on my rope, dug through my bag looking for food, or otherwise distracted my belaying/climbing while not on leash, I'm kicking it hard with the intent to do some serious internal damage and hopefully not see it back at the crag.

Dogs at Crags is a funny issue, b.c with most of the bad stuff that's gets posted or brought up, it's usually just one bad apple that makes a whole crew look bad. But, with dogs, most owners don't give a crap about rules and if they do, think that they should not apply to their "great, well-behaved dog," and tend to be pretty confrontational about it.

To the owners that actually follow the rules, good for you, but, you should still leave it at home to make it easier on the rest of us.

"dogs on a leash at all times. no exceptions"

that's pretty clear.