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I understand there are certain issues that education and signs could help with but do we have to post signs for people to not leave trash, not move other people's property, and treat the landowners and people you meet on private property with respect?

Unfortunately, the answer to this is probably "yes". People do seem to need reminding of standards of behavior that should be obvious. I guess that's one of the same reasons that we have speed limit signs posted every so often along roads .

Peope see what they want to see. Some read signs, others don't. Ignorance is bliss and many climbers choose to be uninformed. My point is that if people are educated about the problem, then folks will understand the severity of the situation and can take an aggressive role in informing others when rules are broken. I know Terry is excellent at doing this but I don't know how many others take on this responsibility.

Call me a dreamer...I see the good in people. Kinda like how there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. I don't believe that climbers are intentionally bad, they just don't always see the writing on the wall.

I love you, Charlie.

Mark, I wouldn't blame you for shutting down the cliff. I hope it doesn't come to that, but you and your family and your business are far more important than a selfish bunch of dirt bags.

Climbers better start policing each other better...

Thanks for all the kind words. You have my permission to post this notice wherever you like. One more addition.

Do not swarm the Crag. No more than 6 climbers to a climbing group.

Thanks again for your cooperation,
Mark Meyer

Mark,
You really must be a Saint to have allowed climbing to stay open as long as you have on your property. I thank you for having way more patience and good-will than I can imagine. It's really too bad that you have to demand people to be decent when they are using your private land. Thanks for being such kind good hearted folks

charlie wrote:Leash laws are posted and the donation box is all of about 2 feet from the freaking trailhead. Sorry if it's not neon and flashing but I guess we assumed most of the climbers were smart enough to actually think it might apply to them. Lack of education about these rules is an invalid excuse.

charlie, education is the only people know about some of them. again, i've stopped at the donation box before and didn't think it was real. i saw it and thought (and recall being told) that it was old and not used any more. it was a while ago but all i remember seeing on it was a porter guide to the area. i don't doubt that, now, there's information about the leash law and such. but being a normal climber at the red, what's to be expected? most of the land we climb on has no fee and, essentially, no rules outside of common sense. unless you tell people the case is otherwise, they're not going to know. several of the rules i wasn't aware of until yesterday and aren't exactly common sense. it's more about communication than babysitting. i agree, many of the rules are common sense and common courtesy.. but some aren't. there's only one crag in the red that asks for donations at the crag.. and the donation box is old, gray, and has chickenwire covering parts of it.

that said, if the problem is getting the word out, fix it. kipp trummel and i are, awaiting mark's permission, donating everything needed to making people aware of any rules or requests. if you guys want paper brochures or signs or whatever, they may not be the prettiest things in the world but i'll make them and foot the bill.

I almost positive that I read in Mark's post above that he gives his permission to use his posted statement for any use that you see fit. Is that what you are talking about Paul? I hope it's something else.

no, i mean i want to make sure he's alright with us making an entirely new box/kiosk to place by the enterance.

and another thing, thanks to the coalition for mediating on saturday. let's not forget that if they hadn't stepped in, we'd be talking about what we need to do to reopen torrent rather than keep it open..

Sandra, love you too babe.

EDITED -- This post came from Charlie at a point of stressed out frustration, not from the RRGCC. I intended to use Paul's example as a means to demonstrate how much of a challenge this communication game is when even the most valuable and responsible members of this community could be misinformed. I was at a loss in understanding why people didn't donate because I always considered it both the rule of thumb and an example of the good manners you would take to anyone's house as a guest. I didn't mean to come off like such an ass, sorry everyone.

Paul3eb in the Trail Day thread wrote:...until last fall when i saw the lovely miss wheatley drop a ten spot into the box, i thought that the donation things was long since dead. had she not done that and i not been there i probably still wouldn't know to drop money in there.

You know I love you to death Paul but come on. This donation box just seemed to be an archeological relic? The fact that you of all people, a climber I consider to be well above the average in intelligence and responsibility can miss it than what can we do? Education by signs clearly isn't going to fix anything, especially when no one reads the signs.

Everyone needs to stop looking to the BOD to handle all issues that come up because we quite simply have our hands full. Volunteer your time to each other and converse. We don't have to manage the communication between everyone and clearly signs and phamplets aren't going to work. Posting them is a minimum requirement but really those in the know are just going to have to proselytize. Would it be that hard to get beta on a great 11b slab? Ask the question anywhere in the Red and you'll get 50 fuckers trying to offer you advice. Talk to each other and start policing yourselves about more than just that last move on whatever climb that was and these kinds of issues would resolve themselves.

Climbers didn't used to have so much trouble understanding the rules of engagement. I don't know what has changed or what I can do to correct it but I admit I'm troubled. When I compare us to paddlers, hikers, and bikers I get more and more ashamed at how selfish and irresponsible our culture has become.