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512OW wrote: You're acting like this is a new thing. Don't you think biners have broken in the past? You can speculate forever on why this particular one broke...or you can get over it.

You're not gonna be able to stop it next time it happens.....so why bother?

Well, you might be able to research and solve the problem and then the biners will never break again. Of course, then the bolt will pull. Fix that and the rope will break. Or the belayer will drop your ass. Or rockfall will splatter your brains all over the belayer. Or Allah will strike your infidel soul into depths of hell never explored by Dante.

ZSpider

Fact is, its either a freak accident, or user error. Just like it has been for decades...

Those carabiners are plenty strong. Making them stronger would be overkill...and if it was that worn, and he went ahead and clipped it, then its his fault.

If fixing the risks inherently involved with climbing is such a big deal, then why not just stop climbing and remove all risk entirely?

While you're at it, don't fuel up your car unless you're in a vaccum of some sort...static electricity may freakishly ignite the fumes. Better yet, just walk everywhere...on trafficless streets...in a padded bubble.

yea but in order to avoid user error, ie choose not to clip the draw, you have to have a sense of percieved risk. thus this thread. to give people more info to do their own risk analysis with.

climbing is alot about facing and managing risk, therefore the more you BS about what is and is not actually risky when climbing the better you can make your own choices.

If you're climbing at the level of being on routes with insitu draws....and you don't know that a biner that looks like that one did is risky...

Then, well.....

Ray and I used to climb with a girl who would take her cams to work and inspect them under microscopes for hairline fractures every time someone weighted one....

Its just more BS to cloud climbing.

I love hearing new climbers talk about 'how many falls' their rope has taken.
What, 10 falls? Why, its only rated for 9, better give it to me...

well Sunshines draws look like that and he will argue with you for hours about how safe they are.

i mean i pretty much see where you are coming from but analyzing errors is a little different from being paranoid.

and i think climbers who fall on draws that look like that all the time, read any motherload clmbers, probably don't think there is any more risk than normal falling on them

any maybe statisticly they are right.

512OW wrote: Its just more BS to cloud climbing.

That's your opinion, and I respect it. But, some of us will continue to believe a little "risk management" here and there to improve the odds can't hurt.

So, there's this climber dude who walks onto the horrorific field of smoking debris of a recent plane crash and to the NTSB inspectors, who are looking for the black box, he calls out:

512OW wrote: Nothings failsafe. Get over it.

Airplanes are a little more complicated than carabiners.

Bad example.

BUT...yes, I'd say the same thing. All that money spent to make the better mousetrap....and still they find a way to fuck up.

Why do people continue to leave fixed draws anyway?