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nice!!

Indiana University has been informed that permits are not needed at this time since there is no staff to issue or inspect/enforce. We limit our group size to a maximum of 15, however it has been a long time since we have actually had a group this large. If we have that many we will set up only 3 ropes at a time and certainly do not try to take over a cliff or ruin other climber's enjoyment. I have always tried to be considerate of those that were there first or have a desire to lead a route we are on.

Mike Jones Rules Dude !

Eric wrote:...permits are not needed at this time since there is no staff to issue or inspect/enforce.

Boy, that's reassuring. Good to know that the FS Fee system is being put to good use.

[rant]It sure would be nice if they took a similar "throw hands in air/shrug" attitude towards new route/crag development on FS land![/rant]

I was just thinking about the group I saw at Roadside last weekend. It's making me think that the privately owned crags should probably enact "no guided groups" bans. (I'm too lazy to look up Muir's policy, but I'm sure that they have thought about this issue.) Guided groups strike me as likely to generate lawsuits. Not because the guides aren't good, but because group participants probably expect an unrealistic level of safety and probably aren't taking as much personal responsibility for the situation. When someone gets hurt/killed and there's a lawsuit, the first step is to file suits against literally everyone they possibly can, and sorting things out later. For a land owner, dealing with such a suit takes a lot of time and thousands of dollars, even if they are eventually dropped from the suit.

more than likely they would sue the organization that sponsored the thing, not the landowner. But they would probably go after everyone and anyone they could. We keep a pretty low ratio of students to instructors, usually 3:1. At the most we set up 3 ropes and always have at least 3 instructors so we have someone to watch every rope. As far as the unrealistic level of safety, we make sure they know that although we are there to guide and help, it is the world we live in that anything can happen. Snakes can bite, rocks can fall on you, rats could chew through anchors, etc. I think I do a pretty good job in our planning meetings of scaring some of them to the point that I have had people drop out after the first meeting when they realize that this is actually dangerous.

was just thinking about the group I saw at Roadside last weekend. It's making me think that the privately owned crags should probably enact "no guided groups" bans. (I'm too lazy to look up Muir's policy, but I'm sure that they have thought about this issue.) Guided groups strike me as likely to generate lawsuits. Not because the guides aren't good, but because group participants probably expect an unrealistic level of safety

I was over at Halfmoon about 2 months ago Rappelling. As Me and My girl were hiking down, I was ahead of her and I ran into a young blonde sitting on a cooler next to a set of anchors running over a blind edge. I asked if she was left watching the gear and the beer, she giggled and I went on. I started hearing sirens in the distance and when I stopped where you have to climb, wating for my girl, she told me the girl had told here the sirens were for her. I assumed she was joking because of the perfect calmness she had when I went by her, so I brushed it off. As we set up for rappell, I kept hearing more sirens. We packed up and went back, there were EMT'S everywhere. (moral of story) Seems a church group of 40 kids and 4 adults hired a "Guide" to teach some of them rappelling. He set up a 16 year old , 260lbs, kid who had never Rappelled before on an 80 foot blind free Rappell on single strand dynamic rope. Do the math, as soon as the kid went over, the rope stretched, the kid panicked and reached for the cliff and proceeded down the cliff. The "Guide" on firemans belay, tried to pull hard enough(he wayed about 135 wet) to stop the fall, they met in the middle, the kid still hit bungee cord style. He broke his ankle, some ribs, and his arm/shoulder and assorted contusions and abrasions. The "Guide" immediatley starts asking if he can use his Parental authority to get the kid taken to Louisville medical center, in a few polite words and with his 6'4 280lbs frame the Emt told him the kid was going to the nearest place depending on if he was brought back up or taken by trail. Before I left I heard 2 of the three parents telling each other they would probably get sued and have to sue the guide and so on and so on, so I basicaaly agree with Tom Darch they will sue any and everybody even when it's they're fault.

Eric wrote:As far as the unrealistic level of safety, we make sure they know that although we are there to guide and help, it is the world we live in that anything can happen. Snakes can bite, rocks can fall on you, rats could chew through anchors, etc. I think I do a pretty good job in our planning meetings of scaring some of them to the point that I have had people drop out after the first meeting when they realize that this is actually dangerous.

Eric,

A few things:
I didn't mean to target you personally.

For all your good planning and explaining to people what's going on, their mindset before and after an event will be different. I work with people who are taking out multi-million dollar loans to build buildings. For all my 'coaching' beforehand, the world is a very differnt place after you sign the papers and now owe a bank a few mill. People's attitudes are very different before and after a severe injury. Plus, while you may be working with the students themselves, you have no control of their families after a fatal accident.

A lot of us here decided to learn to climb on our own, rather than just 'sign up' for an organized trip. I think that that's part of the difference in attitude that I'm thinking of. Not all participants will be passive or incompotent, but a greater percentage will be than among 'self motivated' climbers.

As you say, rats/snakes/rockfall/etc happens. Large groups just increase the exposure to those risks and increase the odds of an incedent that restults in litigation.

Given all these factors, and many more, for the good of the climbing community as a whole, I would urge you to only take groups to FS owned crags. I'm sure that the FS gets sued for various reasons pretty frequently, and that an injured/dead climber suit wouldn't severly change the access situation on FS land. On the other hand, one suit could easily destroy access to privately owned crags like Muir or Roadside.

lawsuits follow money because if they can't find it lawyers cannot find justice

We only use FS owned crags (Fortress, Pistol Ridge, Military, Left Flank), which had included Roadside. With the recent purchase of Roadside by individuals I will have to talk to the new owners to make sure there are no issues. So far (knock on wood) I have had an excellent safety record with no mishaps or injuries in the 5 years I have been guiding with them. I don't know what the prerequisites are for some of these other places for the "guides" they hire, but I have to wonder sometimes.

tomdarch wrote:while you may be working with the students themselves, you have no control of their families after a fatal accident.

that is an excellent point to keep in mind.

Eric wrote:We only use FS owned crags (Fortress, Pistol Ridge, Military, Left Flank), which had included Roadside. With the recent purchase of Roadside by individuals I will have to talk to the new owners to make sure there are no issues. So far (knock on wood) I have had an excellent safety record with no mishaps or injuries in the 5 years I have been guiding with them. I don't know what the prerequisites are for some of these other places for the "guides" they hire, but I have to wonder sometimes.

it only needs to happen once, and there's a potential first for everything.