quit top roping through fixed gear!

[88keys]

careful - I think she will do it.

[pigsteak]

excellent query paul...

[the lurkist]

dumb question i'm sure but why put fixed gear like that in there in the first place? if you're not going to have rope running through it, what's the purpose? why not put the big rap bolts so that your only options are either tr through your own gear or cut your rope to the core in three seconds flat?

I think it might be b/c there has historically been no one central group of people advocating a single standard. I think that in the NRG developers had thought that those drop in rigs and open cold shuts seemed like a good idea. They are convenient. The inherent problem in our sport is that it is difficult to design in to gear the longevity. Many developers don't think any farther ahead than their use of the route. I think that in the Red there is a fairly consistent standard (now), but we still will be facing the reality that all of the bolts we placed will need replacing at some point and the anchors will need to be monitored and serviced. So far the Rawl and Red Head 1/2 " seem to hold up pretty well, as do chain but there will come a time when we will all be old and feeble and someone will still be climbing on the gear. Yikes...
Case in point- Funk Rock City. Yikes...

[Paul3eb]

good points.. especially about trying to design in the longetivity to high wear and tear materials. it just seems to me that it makes much more sense to try to fix the equipment rather than try to fix the attitudes of people. first of all, they're convenient. second, it makes sense to drop it in and lower and tr off that: they are designed to be drop in after all. third, most gumbies aren't taught the rules of the game with respect to these situations. fourth, with the drop-ins, their life is limited to the wear outside the rock. with rap bolts or anything that can't be lowered off, the lifetime is limited to the wear inside the rock, which should be longer. on the flip side, you can't see the potential weaknesses and can't judge their safety through a quick visual check. maybe it's kind of like medication: though daily doses are require more "time and effort" than a monthly dose, that extra attention helps to prevent missed doses and neglegence.

another question: i remember being told to keep the bolt-side biner and rope-side biner distinct so that metal filings from the metal on metal contact between the bolt don't end up in the rope. admittedly, this is why i've never put draws on drop-ins. i don't know how much the alledged filings matter but it makes sense: metal on metal makes bad, sharp things. am i way off base?

[dhoyne]

another question: i remember being told to keep the bolt-side biner and rope-side biner distinct so that metal filings from the metal on metal contact between the bolt don't end up in the rope. admittedly, this is why i've never put draws on drop-ins. i don't know how much the alledged filings matter but it makes sense: metal on metal makes bad, sharp things. am i way off base?

It's not the filings you have to worry about, it's the sharp edges that can be caused. Metal/metal contact will wear the biner (aluminum is much softer than steel), sometimes leaving a sharp burr. You should inspect your biners periodically to make sure there are no sharp edges -- file them down or replace them if you find one. Rope/metal contact will still wear the biner, but it tends to be a very smooth wear because the rope bends around a radius around the biner as opposed to one point of contact like metal.

[the lurkist]

I think for anchors using chain forces people to use their draws (that is, it isn't as convenient to just drop the rope in and the guy putting the rope up will clip his draws to the chain and then only at the end of the day will the rope get threaded. Obviously this won't work all the time, but probably more folks than not will tr through their own draws.

[Ascentionist]

I agree with lurkist. I think chains encourage draw use and can be easily replaced leaving the bolts undisturbed. The downside (one anyway) is that chains definitely have a greater visible impact. Short chains (three links per bolt) aren't so bad and are usually adequate unless the bolts are far apart (which they shouldn't be anyway).

One other problem I see with chains is finding a standard in material and strength.

[TradMike]

Short chains (three links per bolt) aren't so bad and are usually adequate unless the bolts are far apart (which they shouldn't be anyway).

You don't want the bolts too close together because of shear cone overlap and as a result reduced strength. The left image is cone overlap. To utilize the most strength the rock has to offer the bolts need to be spaced as a function of depth of bolt.

[p0bray01]

You can't exactly eliminate the dirt at a crag though... getting people to top rope correctly is somewhat possible.

What would you think would happen if someone made a pamphlet about setting anchors as well as various other issues at the Red and freely distributed it around via the most popular hangouts -- Miguel's, RRO, True North, Mark's, Shell, etc, as well as posted it on all the climbing bulletin boards? Good idea? Worthless?

I think that is a great Idea. Education is the best way to go about this. Although...shooting people is more fun...we all were new once. People have to learn, educate. I had a climbing group from YOSEMITE that were going to do that. The guy leading asked us what was the "etiqette" (sp) around here. We told him the two draws opposite and opposed and he looked at us funny. Oh well.

EDUCATE

[Spragwa]

Wes noticed a guy TRing through the anchor of Tissue Tiger this weekend. I was psyched to hear Wes explain to him that you shouldn't do that. He took the time to tell the guy how much cost and effort goes into anchor replacement. I don't think the guy cared because he justified it by saying his girlfriend wouldn't make it to the top. How lame? He could just go back up and clean like everyone else.