RRC Archives

Meadows wrote:

weber wrote: Taking falls on the bolted hangers leading up to the top anchors

weber wrote:Wes, I was referring to the two hanger brackets at the anchor twisting, not the bracket below the anchor. A whipper will stress the last brackets the rope passes through.

I'm confused ... so explain it to me like I'm a five-year-old:

I thought victory whippers meant not clipping the anchors and falling on the last bolt. Are you saying people are clipping the anchors, climbing above and then falling?

Not sure. What is the true RRG-sanctioned definition of a "victory whipper?" I was referring to taking unecessary falls, either by tagging the anchors and dropping past the last bolt or by clipping the anchors, climbing above them, then dropping past them. Either way, the bolted hanger brackets are unecessarily stressed.

Boy, you folks sure get fiesty when someone questions your victory whippers!

Rick

I don't think anyone is getting fiesty, we're just asking for clarity from your comments.

Spinners seem to be occuring way more consistently in muir than in other regions of the red. Victory whips do seem "unecessary" but haven't been cause for concern in the past. Maybe there's another reason we are having to constantly tighten bolts on brand new routes??

Just to clarify, spinners and loose bolts are two VERY DIFFERENT occurences.

SPINNERS: when the bolt keeps turning but cannot be loosened nor tightened

LOOSE BOLTS: when the bolt is turning and can be loosened or tightened

So, stix, your statement is not really true.

stix wrote:Spinners seem to be occuring way more consistently in muir than in other regions of the red. Victory whips do seem "unecessary" but haven't been cause for concern in the past. Maybe there's another reason we are having to constantly tighten bolts on brand new routes??

You answered your own question. They're brand new routes. Bolts have been known to loosen a bit on brand new routes.

stix wrote:Spinners seem to be occuring way more consistently in muir than in other regions of the red. Victory whips do seem "unecessary" but haven't been cause for concern in the past. Maybe there's another reason we are having to constantly tighten bolts on brand new routes??

First off, I wouldn't necessarily agree that there are more spinners in Muir than elsewhere. There are no stats to back up claims that any one place in the Red has more spinners than another.

Here are a few facts that CAN be confirmed:

1. The bolts used at Muir are the same, or essentially the same, as those used elsewhere in the Red. (Rawl 5-piece 1/2" or Dynabolt Gold 1/2")
2. These bolts are being tightened with the recommended torque for bolting into soft concrete, since no recommendations are given for Corbin sandstone. We use an accurately calibrated torque wrench to periodically check torques.
3. When a bolted hanger is pivoted a few degrees, a thin layer of sandstone is pulverizing behind the hanger bracket, which causes the bolt to loosen significantly -- in some cases to being only finger tight.
4. Within reasonable limits, loose bolts can be retightened to acceptable torque values without adversely affecting the structural integrity of the assembly.
5. New bolted hangers don't always seat perfectly against the rock. After being torqued and re-tightened, they seat better and can better resist being loosened.
6. The new routes in Muir are being climbed extensively. An average of about 175 climbers visit per week. So, some of the routes see more traffic than other places in the Red. More traffic -- more spinners.

As for "constantly tightening bolts", I think this is misleading. Almost all of those bolts found to be loose on new routes, when retightened stay that way.

Of course, if enough victory whips are taken on a bolt, it will have a higher probability of loosening. Funny how on one hand, we love our victory whips knowing that, without question it raises the probability of causing spinners, and on the other hand, we have a disdain for spinners.

Human nature.

Rick

My question is:

Does it still count as a valid send if you touch the anchors and then let go? What if you only clip one of the anchors and then you fall off? What if you get to the top, but are too pumped to clip the anchors and you fall off? What if you get to the top and you put on one draw and then hold the draw to clip the anchors?

squeezindlemmon wrote:Just to clarify, spinners and loose bolts are two VERY DIFFERENT occurences.

SPINNERS: when the bolt keeps turning but cannot be loosened nor tightened

LOOSE BOLTS: when the bolt is turning and can be loosened or tightened

So, stix, your statement is not really true.

Thank you for the clarification, Squeeze. I too referred to loose bolts as spinners -- whether or not they could be retightened. I think most people would. But, to make an already confusing subject easier for all to understand, I'll try in the future to distinguish between spinners and loose bolts.

The only spinners that I'm aware of (by this definition) are those caused by some stubborn Rawl bolts. Is that correct? If so, there are very few spinners compared to the number of loose bolts out there.

Rick

squeezindlemmon wrote:Just to clarify, spinners and loose bolts are two VERY DIFFERENT occurences.

SPINNERS: when the bolt keeps turning but cannot be loosened nor tightened

LOOSE BOLTS: when the bolt is turning and can be loosened or tightened

So, stix, your statement is not really true.

i've always been under the assumption that a SPINNER is a loose hanger that SPINS around the bolt. i would bet that pretty much every climber in the red thinks the same. maybe when the bolters get together and are talking with nerdy bolting lingo, then SPINNER could mean what you are talking about. So, i think it's possible you are partially wrong as well.

Clipping one counts. no clip no send.