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meadows..don't make me come over there....but since you asked...no one should be allowed to proclaim a grade that is at their upper limit. if you hardest redpoint is a confirmed 11b, then suggesting grades for ANY 11's is off limits. you, as a chuffer, can only proclaim your bountiful knowledge on climbs up to 10D.

thanks for asking.

one question piuggy, If no one is aloud to claim grades at there limit or above, then how does the grading system keep on extending? cause you know that those chuffers in europe and the few in the states dont climb 5.15 consistantly like you climb 5.11 and 5.12. so tell me how are they aloud to rate these things?

The man makes a good point.

allah,

thanks mighty one for allowing me this opportuniy to expound the laws of the universe.

as we both know, when a new grade is suggested, there is much hoopla surrounding its acceptance. when alex huber says something is 14c/d, we can trust him, given that the man has turned himself into a legend...however, when 15a is suggested, we also know that it takes many years to confirm it. when sharma sent realization, what grade did he give it????? that's right, he didn't grade it. he left that to future ascentionists. but if allah were to proclaim a grade of 5.15a, then the greater gods would want to know how many other confirmed routes you have down at the upper ends of the universe.

of course, you are talking about the fringes. 99.3% of the routes in the Red can be climbed by someone stronger. they should be the ones to pronounce grades.

my bone with people grading stuff at their limits is that they truly can't conceptualize how hard it is, because they lack adequate experience at that grade. likewise, they are being inefficient when climbing, as we all are at our limit. routes at our limit feel "way hard", but to someone else this is a warmup. I would prefer for the latter to grade the route.

so the rule stands..if you can barely send 10D, you are to keep your mouth shut on all potential ratings over 10B....

There you go climbing world, My apprintence has explained the ways, now obey it or DIE

YES!!!!!! The mighty allah has spoken...curses on all your redpoints if you fail to heed my warnings.

question, piggy: would you prefer a *stronger* climber to grade a moderate route when to them it's "just like a warm up"? I know some strong climbers who grade 5.11 climbs as 5.10 bec they are waaaaayyy too strong to differentiate the lower grades at all. if *weaker* climbers truly can't conceptualize how hard a route is bec they lack the adequate experience at that grade, doesn't that mean the same for the *stronger* climbers but vice versa?

we beg for enlightenment, all-knowing piggy!

oh squeez.....my uninformed child. the errors of your reasoning are apparent, but misunderstanding of this simple concept shall readily be exorcised from your thinking. the converse is not true because stronger climbers have experienced the full gamut of joy and intensity of climbing at all levels. duffers at the lower end of the spectrum have tunnel vision.

now, in the cases where stronger climbers grade a 5.11 as easy 5.10, we have encountered a scenario where ego has replaced "the love and harmony" that epitimizes true climbers. this sandbagging is intentional, but stronger climbers like to assert, "I just can't grade those lower routes anymore"..in which case you are told to grab their flaming bicep and proclaim how strong they looked sending it in their tennis shoes. that, my friend, is the stoke of genius that will endear you to them for eternity.

if you know someone who constantly sandbags the lower grades, either kiss their ass to show gratitude, or understand that they are not like you and I.....they climb for ego, and not the love...hope this helps.

This post is becoming entertaining... My frustration is with people who are relatively inexperienced trying to tell a group of guys who have climbed thousands of routes of various grades and styles on many types of rock all over the country that they are wrong. My comments were not directed toward Eric, Josh, or JR. I think I just needed to vent since I'm not too good at that whole Buddhist "detachment" thing anymore.

Anyway, that's a great send for Eric and I'm glad that route went for such a great guy.

Well, since this post was originally about Eric sending "Science Friction" I wanted to share a short story...

Eric and I were both biology students at IU back in the mid 1990s. He's always been an inspiration to me ever since the times he took me on many of my first trips to the New, Seneca, and the Red. He was also the one who encouraged me to continue climbing after breaking and dislocating my shoulder for the third and final time. As many of you may know, after the operation I was told that my range of motion would be limited and that I'd never be able to climb again, blah, blah, blah... etc. Well, I refused to participate in physical therapy again and decided that I would do it MY way.

It was Eric's patient coaching that quickly got me back on the rock. He led many easy routes for me when I was too weak. I hated his rule (at the time) about being lowered to the ground whenever I tried to reach over my head or pull hard with my injured arm. It was definitely a good idea and I probably lacked the discipline and self-restraint to do this on my own. Eventually my strength returned without overdoing it and risking reinjury. My technique improved dramatically in the process. Anyway, thanks Eric (and I'm sorry I laughed at you when you got your foot stuck in the crack while leading "Synchronicity")... and then he wouldn't even let me top-rope it because it was overhanging and I wasn't yet ready to climb overhangs with an arm that was only a couple weeks out of a sling).

As I watched him climb I always admired his ability and had hoped to someday move so fluidly and smoothly over stone. Well, it hasn't happened yet, but maybe someday that day will come...