RRC Archives

I believe this was the thread:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=2635

Ban the big group, split up your climbing posse into a more managble, eco friendly size!

Caspian wrote:

tomdarch wrote:The quality of the climbing doesn't matter - it's the right kind of place for 1 leader, 4 ropes and 11 gumbies. The most popular spots in the Red isn't.

agreed

Actually, roadside is a great place for this. Let them play on those 7, 8, and 9 slabs all day.

And as Spragwa said, its nice that someone actually takes the time to give the warning.

But you know, the "Eric" troll would have garnered a bit more negative reaction had he said he was from a big University and they were heading for a more specific, high traffic climb rather than just naming a crag.

Mj

bottom line: the warning is very considerate and much appreciated.

Yeah the advanced notice is indeed nice, maybe call up the dirt below Roadside Attraction and let it know that there will be 24 Tevas walkin' all over it.


In all honesty folks wouldn't it be nice if more 'outing clubs' handled big groups responsibly? Now 12 is big, but its no 15 to 25 like has been seen before at some crags. At Acadia the NPS limits groups at the most popular crag, Otter Cliffs. Seems from reading the guidebook that they only allow 2 groups per day. A group is minimum 6, maximum 12 either commercial or non. Groups have to have an advanced reservation and have to carry all their paperwork at all times. Evidently this is to keep the forest at the top of the cliff from getting denuded and errode into the ocean, and to keep the place from being a total zoo (I'll report back on that at the end of the month!). Now I wouldn't say the FS goes to a program like this, but should there be some established guidelines to big groups?

My intention from posting about the group was to give advanced notice to anyone who might care. Not to rehash already discussed topics. I would rather let this topic die and not keep stirring up the pot since we already discussed these things in the last thread, but it is probably better to talk about this stuff.

I certainly appreciate everyone's concerns. Let me throw out a few things- first, I climb in the Gorge myself and enjoy peace and quiet when I climb, however I realize and accept that there are going to be certain crags that I should not go to if I want peace and quiet on a weekend.

Second, I do work for a big university (Indiana University) and we will continue to have these courses because they truly make a positive impact on the students and allow us to educate them about Leave No Trace ethics and proper climbing behavior outdoors, as well has broaden their horizons to new areas and outdoor activities. Indiana University has been responsibly guiding rock climbing trips to the Gorge trips for almost 20 years. In addition, we are currently in the process to get approved for a permit to guide in the Gorge. We spend alot of time training our instructors about environmental awareness, climbing safety and etiquette, first aid, and managing groups. In the future we will be participating in trail building days and cliff cleanups.

Third, environmental impact- most of the crags at the Red are located adjacent to a major paved road, have established gravel parking areas, and maintained trails. I make a point to make sure that we visit these more established crags (e.g. Roadside, Military, Fortress) and when we leave an area there is no evidence that we were even there. In fact I have participants pick up additional trash every time we leave a crag. Responsibly managed, the environmental impacts from 12 people are going to be insignificant. Consider the fact that not to long ago the Gorge was a clear cut, mined out area. I am not saying this to justify any degradation caused by future users, but to point out that we are not talking about a virgin alpine forest. Every user group identified by the Forest Service has a right to use the Gorge. The Forest Service has identified climbers as a user group and even gives permits to guide trips in this area. If we broke our group up into smaller groups it would mean hiring more staff to maintain a safety ratio.

I try and be as considerate as possible at the crags and wait until everyone is done with a climb before I set up our group rope on a route. I never have more than three ropes set up. I had three ropes set up the whole weekend when we climbed and I couldn't keep the kids off of the wall, it was awesome to experience their energy and enjoyment for a new activity. I look forward to being involved with any future discussions about managing groups at the Gorge because it is something that is going to occur and with reasonable management can be done to everyone'e satisfaction.

and now back to my real job.......

Thanks for the post Eric. Don't feel that my comments were any sorta challenge to you or your group in particular. I'm glad to see your university outings are as much educational as they are fun ( I know there are others who post around here who do what you do on university sanctioned outings). Many goups who use teh Gorge for regular outings are getting the point, but there are still other groups who have a lot to learn. And when I say groups that could be organized or a social posse of 10 people who happen to meet up and climb together. You are right in that universities, clubs, or camps are legit forest users groups who have the right to be there, they just have to be responsible.

To get to my point, we have debated this big group thing time and time again. Is this something ya'll would like the CAC and/orRRGCC address with the FS? My thought is that with the LAC process starting this topic might get addressed in some way shape or form anyway.

It is interesting to note that UK is getting a new person in charge of outdoor pursuits. Let's hope the program can grow in the right direction. BTW, the temporary head is none other than Mark Lattin.

If all the big groups were managed as well as Eric's classes then a few classes should not be a problem. Proper education is definitely a step in the right direction. It's reassuring to know that there is someone like Eric out there teaching the right way to behave in the wilderness.

Climb on and be good to the Earth,
J-Rock

Thanks for the heads up that one Eric. Getting a guide permit sounds like a great idea...why don’t you let everyone know when you get one too. I am going to get my PHD someday, so I figure I should start practicing. Just giving everyone a heads up so I dont think anyone will mind.

Now off my horse and back to my real job...