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True, I definitely didn't redpoint but it was good practice.

Again from virtuallinks.com:

Flash - To climb a route on the first try without ever having physically touched the route. Beta is allowed during a flash attempt.

Redpoint - Lead climbing a route from bottom to top in one push. In order to successfully redpoint, you must not fall or hangdog. It should be noted that in recent years it has now been accepted that a person who climbs with pre-placed sport-lead gear (i.e. quickdraws) can still declare a redpoint (this is sometimes referred to as a "pinkpoint").

I'm not saying you didn't redpoint it......that's all up to you and what you can sleep with at night. Many famous lines were done with preplaced protection and considered FFAs. Someone else always comes along to do it with better style though (placing gear on lead).

Although, seriously, if you find yourself working a trad line for awhile you'll see that you get the gear so dialed that it's just as easy as hanging a draw. On one of my hardest trad sends I wrote the gear down in a journal and made sure that I had each piece racked on the correct side and in the correct order. I've even placed tick marks near the crack where the piece goes. That's no more trickier than hanging a damn draw if you ask me.

Ok...so I didn't vote because there needs to be an option without the 'knowing the grade" thing. What if I plan on going to a new area I have never been to before. I buy a guide book that has only the names of the routes, number of bolts(if any) and other non-beta informantion. Does this mean I can't on-sight any of the routes I get on because I know the grade? No, that is silly, knowing the grade can't help my accent. Along those same line. How can pre-placed draws help me 'read' the route.

On-sighting is all about climbing the route without any beta...period.

So if I on-sight a boulder problem that has chalk on it, was that an on-sight?

I have a question-- can this topic possibly be beat any further into the ground??

Yasmeen wrote:I have a question-- can this topic possibly be beat any further into the ground??

Never...we have egos to protect here

I'd just forget all these categories and think of it as a continuum leading to your prefered ethic as defined by you and try as best as possible to approach that ethic.

NEWS FLASH...due to the lastest 'rules' on what is a pure on-sight, it is not possible to on-sight most routes in the Madness cave at the Motherlode. Anyone out there that had the juice to climb to the anchors of any route in that cave with fixed draws without falls...well sorry it was only a flash.

Apparently, those draws hanging there somehow helped you read those moves, it's weird to think that could be, but it must be true.[/b]

rhunt wrote:Ok...so I didn't vote because there needs to be an option without the 'knowing the grade" thing. What if I plan on going to a new area I have never been to before. I buy a guide book that has only the names of the routes, number of bolts(if any) and other non-beta informantion. Does this mean I can't on-sight any of the routes I get on because I know the grade? No, that is silly, knowing the grade can't help my accent. Along those same line. How can pre-placed draws help me 'read' the route.

On-sighting is all about climbing the route without any beta...period.

So if I on-sight a boulder problem that has chalk on it, was that an on-sight?

Most guidebooks I've ran across are not as comprehensive as John's. John tells a story about almost every one of the 1200+ routes at the gorge. The guidebooks I'm familiar with give Name, Grade, Location. That is what the pole is based on.

If a new route goes up such as "Realization" (5.15a) then it gets so much media coverage that you'd have to live in a box to know the grade. Has this route become "un-onsightable"?

SCIN wrote:I think that knowledge of grade, number of bolts, etc. has been pretty well accepted here at the red as not interfering with an onsite. Just like prehung draws have been accepted here as a redpoint.

Read Ray's quote, "prehung draws have been accepted here as a redpoint". So what is all this talk about hanging draws and getting a flash or an onsight. Those must be done cleanly.