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That is a complete perversion of what I just said. What I did say is that when on lead and faced with the choice of placing protection by creating a hole to insert a piece of steel, pins have a valid place.

Ever since the pin was removed from the Gift, I wouldn't even be able to tell you where you can find one in the Red.

toad857 wrote:Ever since the pin was removed from the Gift, I wouldn't even be able to tell you where you can find one in the Red.

Nevermore and central scrutinizer have one each.. also day dreaming had one not sure that one is still there..

[quote=
Nevermore and central scrutinizer have one each.. also day dreaming had one not sure that one is still there..[/quote]

Daydreaming didn't have a pin way back when and it protected just fine with mostly passive gear.

I could be wrong about Day Dreaming..
I thought the anchor had an old hex and a small pin.

Howie Feltersnatch wrote:... If you have never done ground up new routes then you are ignorant on this subject and should not chime in against pins...

what a load of shit

CLIMBTRAD wrote:I could be wrong about Day Dreaming..
I thought the anchor had an old hex and a small pin.

Oh, it might have, and maybe it still does. But when I climbed it there wasn't a fixed pin. I can't remember what we rapped from but it wasn't a fixed anchor. If there's a tree somewhere on the ledge I would have put a sling on it and rapped from that.

The above discussions do bring up an interesting point: how ideologically linked are the concepts of drilled pockets for free climbing and pin placements on single or low pitch routes? It sounds like very few fixed pins remain in the Red, but has the drilled pocket / chipping debate yet touched the Red? Im fairly ignorant of the high end sport scene here. Given the very generous featured nature of the rock here, I do find the idea of adding holds to be silly, guess I dont climb hard enough to understand. In both cases, however, the first ascensionist chooses to scar or alter some aspect of the rock to establish the line in the best style he sees fit. The spoto chisels his way to glory so that he can later come back and red point his all free proj, while the trado sinks home a ringing fatty so that he can continue to shake his way to the top so that he can go 'ground up, bra.' Both climbers have tried the route and realized that they would have to alter the rock in some way to make it to the top. Very few imperfect beings could realistically look at any route and think that no one else in the wide world could roll in and do it in better style at some point in time ( pin or drilled pocket free). The option always exists to let sleeping dogs lay/lie/lye. What sets these two apart, aside from everything that is wrong and right with the world? How much more offensive is an enhanced hold, than a pin-enhanced placement?

*This is only an exercise, I wanted to try on some lycra to see how it feels. I feel very very dirty.

I'd like to place a pin in this thread

megmay wrote:........This is only an exercise, I wanted to try on some lycra to see how it feels. I feel very very dirty.

Ha ha, I want to meet Megmay, hoping she's a girl.