Please Explain It To Me.

[Meadows]

He did the climb, but he didn't do the grade. Kind of like entering a 5k, but finding a shortcut mid-race. You ran the race, but you didn't run a 5K; you're forever marked down as running a 17-minute 5K (on 5k.nu of course).

Who knows what info he had on the route. Let's post cheater arrow signs on routes to direct people so this argument dies. Oh and C2C, I hung one on Herd Mentality for you.

[pigsteak]

thats an awesome idea meadows. we can get rick to give us some of those metal ovals to glue to all rests that are not allowed on a route. engrave them; "dooooood, this chuffer rest totally makes you lame on 8a.nu"

[SCIN]

I screwed up when I started this post. More than the grade, I meant to emphasize the fact that the debate about "the rest" on the route is over 7 years old. Is it not time to move on?

Agreed. I witnessed Tommy Caldwell naturally step over to the ledge also. Why? Because he is a smart climber and Kenny Barker is an anti-american ruled by a small guinea pig which he thinks is a dog named gus gus.

[JR]

why are grades important: because whether you admit it or not for most of us it is not the beauty of climbing or the aesthetics of the wall or being outside that is most important, it is being able to face a considerable challenge (often physical and mental) and come out of it a better person for having given it a great effort both while on route and in the preparation before, if you can quantify that challenge then it usually will have more meaning (for those occasions when you did what was supposed to be a project quickly who hasn't felt just a twinge of being cheated or not had the thought cross your mind that the route was either soft for the grade or just fit your strengths well? or if an "expert" told you something that took you a lot of work was soft for the grade who doesn't feel a loss of accomplishment?)

Well said.

I am not ashamed to admit that I am a numbers chaser, I want to be able to do the harder challenge and for the most part the grades given on the site and in the guidebook are pretty accurate, but when an expert can verify something as legit, all the better

I liked that you said numbers chaser rather than the more common number chaser. I liked it because it tells me that it isn't just one grade that you might be pursuing. There is no mountain top. The numbers go on forever. There is always a higher grade. There is always room for more improvement.

I also love breaking up the numbers chasing game into a bunch of disciplines. Like 5.12 slab, 5.13 endurance, 5.12 gear routes, 5.12 in new areas, 5.11 multipitch. Just another way to make a numbers game out of climbing.

Paradise Lost is an awesome route no matter its grade but if I was to project it and send it I am not afraid to admit that I would have more satisfaction from the send if it was a consensus 13b as opposed to 13a, in the past I have gotten more satisfaction from sending one route that seemed to play to my personal weaknesses than another of the exact same grade that played to my strengths

Well said.

[pigsteak]

actually doesnt the mountain stop at 5.15 something?

[JR]

I don't know... still seems more like an ego thing to me when we have to invoke the distinction between 13a and 13b.

I can see what you mean...But here is the thing....You might be getting hung up on the amount of ego thrown around by climbers that climb at that grade at the RED. Trust me. There is very little distinction between 13a and 13b or a 5.8+ or 5.9 for that matter. But this is the scale that we use, have used, and probably will continue to use. End of story. No ego. Just a grade(not even a very high one in the scheme of things).

Whatever consensus the grade may be (on any route), only you can decide how big of a challenge it was for you. Climbing is a personal adventure, and only you can judge your accomplishment---is your end-game just getting up and clipping the chains? Or is it to send the route in style, with complete mental control and absolute focus? Nobody on the ground will know if you almost wet your pants at the crux...but you will. Not all sends are equal, whatever the grade.

I agree with the first part. But then it starts to break down into something personal. To me, it reads like you are saying it is important to send in style. If that is the case refer back to the grade system that we use, have used and probably will continue to use. There are no style points. This isn't a dance contest where everyone does the same route and the winner is the one that keeps their toes pointed and smiles the most.

The idea of "quantifying" the challenge doesn't resonate with me: What's more difficult--for an experienced climber to overcome fear and physical hurdles on a 5.13b, or for a brand-new climber to overcome the same obstacles on a 5.7? To me, it's the same thing through and through. There's no difference. I still feel the same way when I get to a route's crux as I did on my first day of climbing. How I react to it, though, has changed. And that can't be quantified.

To me it sounds like you enjoy the feeling of being challenged. Don't the grades make it easier for you to hone in on the appropriate route or challenge???

[JR]

Not sure Pigsteak. Wasn't 5.15 originally theoretical??? Wasn't 5.10 difficult???

[Meadows]

thats an awesome idea meadows. we can get rick to give us some of those metal ovals to glue to all rests that are not allowed on a route. engrave them; "dooooood, this chuffer rest totally makes you lame on 8a.nu"

Let's totally write that but in a big, neon sign.

Better idea: those hidden hunting video cams pointing right at the climb, and start a web site, 8amyass.nu to out all those chuffers. I'll make sure I wear bright colors so I stand out.

[climb2core]

Meadows,
You want to hang some draws too while you are up there putting that big fancy neon sign? Maybe I could start a support group... CA, chuffers anonymous. We could hold meetings at Miguel's after and admit our weakness to other like minded souls that understand.

Hi, my name is Ian and I am chuffer. I used -the hueco- again today, and I took my 12c points for send. I admit, I am powerless over my addiction to climb routes the easiest way possible.

Thanks,

Weak sauce

[Meadows]

Kenny Barker is an anti-american ruled by a small guinea pig which he thinks is a dog named gus gus.

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