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Yeah, but we just happen to all be climbers as well as internet geeks (I hope we all do some form of climbing and no one visits this site strictly for the witty banter). It would be a totally different scenario if we were a bunch of politicians who have never climbed before trying to set grades and quality ratings. Also, if you go with your first item, John automatically excluded all the people he didn't ask which was just as big of a number as the number of people who don't have internet access in today's world. You are always going to exclude someone, so it's best not to focus on the ones who AREN'T here and make use of the opinions of the people who ARE here.

Mj

DISCLAIMER: Not a bash on the veteran climbers who have contributed more to this climbing world and climbed harder than I have even thought about.

Ah, but try this: You have 5 guys who are 100 years old who have done things a certain way their whole life. Obviously to live 100 years, they have some life experience and have to be doing something right. They probably has some damn good advice on how to live your life and if you follow it, you will probably do ok....to an extent. Now let's say that in that same time period you have 100 people who are 30 years old. They don't have quite as much life experience, but all of them have still lived 30 years. Now my question: Which group would you ask for advice on driving?

Mj

Neither.

You make a good point, Why not ask both groups?

Exactly, and since both groups are very well represented here there is no reason not to make use of their opinions.

Mj

I do take in all of your opinions. What I was saying is that the old fart's and the more experienced among you influence me more than those of you who, while you may be badass climbers, simply haven't seen or done as much. Plain and simple, they have a broader knowlege base. So when Johnny and t-bone say this route (pronounced "root" ) doesn't deserve 3 stars, I am less inclined to go with a majority vote, and more inclined to demand a unanimous vote before making a change.

We don't have a unanimous vote on this route, so my opinion is that it stands at 2 stars.

My approach could very well be wrong, and I am still listening to you on this issue. I'd like to hear from more people, too, though.

DAMMIT SANDY! Holy Jeebus Cripes! Ok.

Mj

My opinion means nothing. I am neither a "bad ass climber" or an "old fart climber". I am an Old Fart and I do climb. My son says my climbing knowledge far exceeds my climbing experience or my climbing ability. Ain't he sweet to his old man! I will listen and learn.

I'm going to be honest and look like a moron here. I'm new to outdoor climbing, and I have the ratings down, but what exactly DO the stars stand for?