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Just curious as to why so much effort went into purchasing and placing perma draws a season ago only to have them removed this season? I am hoping this is a joke just to get the internet hoardes excited. If not, what has changed from last season's discussions that lead to the draws being purchased, and even actively fund-raised for, to now being taken down?

I still side with what seemed consensus last year. That trade routes at trade crags will end up getting perma/project draws placed whether we like it or not. This has shown to be historically accurate and I do not see this changing. Regardless of whether that is good practice or bad is ultimately irrelevant as it seems to be the norm in the red. The least we can do is try to put solid gear up as a community through such efforts as placing climb-tech style draws when possible. Of course, when not possible we will probably see aluminum draws go up as history has shown us.

I guess there becomes a question of who inspects this gear... well climbing is dangerous and we as climbers have to understand that we take risks by climbing, and even further risks by clipping into someone else's(perma) gear. If we have a problem with it we can always hang our own as I have yet to see a hanger that will not accomodate a second draw being clipped in.

How many routes last season recieved new perma draws?

B-rock wrote:I seriously doubt that this was an attempt to reduce traffic...most likely, it was an attempt to rid the Lode of old, manky, and potentially unsafe gear! As far as climbing traffic, I think that perma draws actually help to facilitate the speed and flow of traffic efficiently, especially on busy days. Oh, and hanging draws is more bad-ass than simply clipping, but obviously can be a real pain when it comes to cleaning...some routes are simply perma worthy!

This is definately not solely an attempt to rid the lode of unsafe gear, sure some of the routes had somewhat questionable draws on them, but there were a fair amount on the GMC and Undertow wall that had almost brand new perma draws on them, I haven't been to the load since Sunday, but i talked to a friend that was there today and he said everything but the cave and possibly buckeye were completely stripped.

pigsteak wrote:Loders are too lazy to hang draws, so take away the candy, the playground becomes deserted...brah.

Gotta disagree with you on this one, Kipp... I think if you give it a few weeks, you are just going to see many of the routes get equipped again, except this time it'll be with someones "project draws" which normally means it's their old set of draws. So now I think we'll just start seeing routes being left with manky aluminum draws instead of just leaving them equipped with perma-draws (the clim-tech ones).

I gotta agree with kafish on this one... Whether the consensus is to leave routes equipped or not is out of the question. People are going to leave draws on routes, so we might as well as do our best as a community to make sure that the equipment that is left on routes is as safe as possible. Again, climbing is dangerous, so you should assume the risk when you tie into the sharp end. On your way up, if you aren't inspecting the draws to make sure they aren't manky, then it's your own fault. If you don't like the perma-draws, then hang your own draws!

I'm not saying I'm for or against perma-draws... I'll gladly hang draws on any route I want to get on... but if people are going to leave their draws on routes just for someone else to clean up after them... I think that's BS. At least the perma-draws will last a little longer and be a safer option in the mean-time. Also, it gives the locals a little longer time before the draws need to be replaced. With manky aluminum biners hanging on everyones projects, the locals cant keep up with inspecting all that gear. At least with the perma-draws it gives us a fighting chance...

Also, I'm curious... of the people that stripped the draws... how many of y'all donated to help get the Lode rebolted??

B-rock wrote:Oh, and hanging draws is more bad-ass than simply clipping, but obviously can be a real pain when it comes to cleaning...some routes are simply perma worthy!

Oh, yes!!! HAHAHAHA!!!! "I'm such a badass because I hung my own draws on that route" You can't be serious!?!?! You're climbing on a freaking pile of rocks... Sport Climbing, nonetheless!

I still hope you guys are joking. Most of those draws were brand new steel perma's. Hoofmaker just got new steel permas installed last week. I can't imagine that this was Dario's idea as he was the man behind the fund raiser for the draws. How did no one see this happen?

Damn, did Trial Tutt start cranking 13's? Seriously, how does all that gear get removed without someone seeing this. Somebody has some 'splaining to do.

hey folks. i haven't been out to the lode in a few, but from what i gather a lot of the miguel's campers went out and took all the draws off of the undertow and the bulk of the buckeye. it sounds like they left draws or biners on the anchors and a cleaning draw somewhere lower on the steeper lines. i'm not sure what their exact reasoning was or what they plan on doin with all the gear cleaned.

nice..if steel draws are left on the anchors, and a steel draw is left midway to facilitate cleaning, does anyone really have a problem with that?

but to whomever took the steel draws, they need to be left at miguel's and not stolen. they do not belong to you and that makes you a thief if you do not make sure the perma draws get left at the Red.

read many of the comments here "there is no discussion...perma draws are here"..."help flow of traffic on busy days"..."climbing is dangerous"...people, take a deep breath...please do not forget this is outdoors climbing, not your personal gym. why in the world do folks queue up a dozen deep to take runs at the Lode when there are hundreds of other worthy routes at the Red that will offer you quality and peace and quiet?

also, isn't having your own draws on a route more safe than even clipping steel permas? so that argument holds no water.

and there is a discussion whether permas belong at all..I know, I know, it makes me sound old and I am. but permas is part of the reason Roadside is closed, so I can bet you a hundred bucks we won't make that mistake again.

shoot, now with just two steel draws at anchors and a cleaning perma in the middle, can't you climbers now at least partially fix every stinking line at the Lode?

seems like thievery to me. no 'discussion' is necessary--it appears they've been jacked.