Speak Up!

[caribe]

I like Dusti's perspective. It is difficult to honor however.

[dustonian]

Very enlightening there dustonian. I had no idea.
Seems pretty clear that for those who establish "sprad" routes, their experience was not at all "traditional" but for those who repeat the route it's "trad". Unless, that is, they rap and plug gear before the "send". In which case they've created a sport climbing experience.

I agree, the Sprad FA-ist sacrifices the horrifying pleasure of ground-up climbing the rest of us enjoy. That said, I think hoarding sprad "projects" is way homo. But whatev, there's a lot of rock out there so no big deal.

[LK Day]

I will say this, even though I excavated all of my routes on lead, and had a fine time doing it, the "sprad" approach to creating modern trad routes sure makes a lot of sense.

[dustonian]

It sure does on certain routes. Other lines are "made" for ground-up climbing, even in the Red. Each line sort of dictates its own style and the FA gets to interpret that... pretty cool.

"Excavated"... love it!

[Andrew]

It seems that there has been somewhat of a shift in the end goal. If you goal is to have an adventure then the "traditional" approach is taken. If your goal is to enjoy quality climbing movement/send then the "sprad" approach is taken. I do believe that you can have the goal of both, but I think that might require a high quality route.

[LK Day]

dustonian - I completely agree with what you say. Including how the FA's approach is generally dictated by what they find before them and their appetite for adventure. One thing for sure, it would be the rare "sprad" project that would have been honored in the '70s and '80s. In fact, I'm pretty sure I would have found poached fruit to be particularly delicious.

I think we all share the same end goal - great climbing. But putting up a good route in fine style is the best of all. At least it was for me.

[dustonian]

hahaha... "poached fruit," my next 5.10 crack

j/k everybody.

yeah, these days "style" has taken a back seat to "end product"... it's like we're trying to fabricate and sell something at the mall!

[pigsteak]

I have a hundred arguments and questions to add to this conversation (of course), but they will have to wait as I am out the door heading to the Obed. Suffice to say, I have never put up a "sprad" route in my life. Nor have I ever bolted ground up. To bolt ground up, is hanging on hooks consider OK to drill? If so, then what the hell is the difference between that and just rapping in?

[dustonian]

Nothing really... at a certain point in ground-up bolting, rapping in makes more sense... usually around bolt number 3 or so for me is when I bail and try to find a way to scramble around the side if possible. Plus, the bolts typically wind up in better places anyway if you're rapping.

Bolting ground-up is really just a matter of necessity... in Yosemite, I put up a bunch of "traditional-style" bolted routes ground-up on the upper apron of Lower Cathedral Rock. Nothing overhead to rap in from except 1800 feet of lichen, choss, and the occasional nice crack... in the Red, we have the advantage of short cliffs and easy scrambles to the top.

[caribe]

Living up to ground-up-ethics is something to which I am not committed. On one side you have: buckets of sweat, buckets of insects, gardening, loose dirt, slime, moss and lichen, more danger from death fragments and the unknown; One the other side you have: movement beta, gear beta!!, clean holds, and the known. With the ground-up battle, you need to prep to go medieval! you need to be thinking Pvt. John Rambo! As was mentioned earlier, I will go either way with new routes depending on the threat level and how I am feeling. What I am REALLY committed to, what really attracts me is the learning curve. The routes that are most rewarding are the ones that crushed me a few years ago that now yield under intellectual pressure, increased confidence and effort.

Trad possesses a dimension that sport doesn't in that one has to think more about protection. Due to the dimensions associated with the protection argument, the trad learning curve is more complex than the sport learning curve. The recipes for the sport versus the trad learning curves enrich the climber so differently, I find it difficult to understand why one would want to do only one form of climbing. F all this let's go boulder . . . .

I have no interest in ice climbing, aid climbing or ice-aid climbing. Well, I guess I am a little box of contradictions . . . I need to state all of that before Pigsteak tears into me.