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Well, it's strictly semantical from a historical perspective... up until the last few years, "traditional" strictly meant going from the ground up without walking around the side of the cliff and preinspecting/cleaning/protecting. Now it often means any climb requiring removable pro, but in my opinion, that's really a misnomer when it comes to the first ascent (or any other ascent involving toproping, rappel cleaning, protecting, or preinspection). That said, I've done a few ground-up "trad" climbs that wound up having sections of "sport-like" bolt ladders in them, so what's the point in that really?

In the end, I just think ground-up FA climbing is perhaps the raddest, most fun form of rock climbing (except maybe deep-water soloing), so if the route looks like it might permit that form of ascent (honestly a rarity in the Red given the early choss factor), it should be tried first--simply because it is super fun and exciting and a relatively rare opportunity really these days.

Anyway, thanks for humoring the debate Russ.

To quote the pig... Agreed.

It's all about the fun-factor dude. And if I was 20 years younger (read that as not as prone to injury, or maybe not as 'worried' about the healing) I'd probably be trying them all ground up! Looking forward to seeing what wildness you are getting yourself into these days.

So Pig, come out, come out, wherever you are!

rjackson wrote: Looking forward to seeing what wildness you are getting yourself into these days.

Honestly, much above 10c or so in the Red and I tend to start rap cleaning and inspecting myself! Did manage an 11b ground up this season, after several failed attempts on a high (albeit well-protected) crux... never had to do a full-on sportclimbing kneebar on a trad route before!

dustonian wrote:Well, it's strictly semantical from a historical perspective... up until the last few years, "traditional" strictly meant going from the ground up without walking around the side of the cliff and preinspecting/cleaning/protecting.

Damn, you must be old. A few years ago meaning what? Trads been trad for at least the 10+ years I've been climbing, probably has been since the development of fortress.

What is the Red coming to ?
Next we will be bolting faces that go with gear.

Is Dru the "random Dude" ??

Did they decide on a grade for the route too? Unclimbed 5.11? ( 5.11U )

It aint a route until you pooped on it in front of 'em....NOW its YOUR route.

Kipp, I'm still waiting on the topo you said you made on the routes here at Land of the Arches. Would like to know what's been done here or I might have to let these kids from IN, who really want this project, develope the area.