RRC Archives

climb2core wrote:

DonnyP wrote:I have only been on Iniquity a hand full of times, and Cell Block Six not at all yet. However, if Cell Block Six is anything like this dude (http://vimeo.com/11560092) makes it look, it' is WAY easier than Iniquity, consider the hard start. Even if there is a sit-down rest before the red-point crux on Iniquity, getting off the ground on that route is much harder than anything I see on Cell Block Six in this video. Regardless, Iniquity is a great route, and I can't wait to get on Cell Block Six.

LOL, DonnyP, come on.... Are you seriously grading a climb by a video? Maybe, maybe you can get an approximate grade from watching a video (ie looks 5.11or 5.12ish) but to distinguish between 12b or 12c, really? You are right that Iniquity is a great route and you do need to get on Cell Block!!! Looking forward to spring

I wasn't judging the grade based on the video so much as I was complimenting the guy for making it look so damn easy. No chalk, no visible exertion, and a totally calm demeanor at the chains; most people are wasted as they approach the top of that wall, so I thought maybe just for once the route would be as easy as it appears on video. Of course I will have to find out this Spring, and will almost certainly find myself working too hard, chalking too much, and gasping as I stare at my forearms wondering why they seem to be turning to stone. I can hardly wait.

Also, a note on Iniquity's hard start: I think that routes with starts much harder than the rest of the route should influence the grade as much as those moves would should the have been 10, 30, or 70 feet up. If Iniquity had a start as easy as the rest of the section leading up to the no-hands rest, but that hard boulder problem occurred immediately after the rest, it would certainly be rated harder than .12b even though the climber should be totally fresh going into those moves. Though it is inconsistent to do so, we (some more than others) tend not to consider hard starts when grading routes. As someone else here said, though, if the moves stop the .12b climber, the route is properly harder than .12b. And I am not saying this so I can spray about a harder send; I haven't yet sent Iniquity anyway...

I wish I climbed hard enough to chime in... next year I'll join this conversation.

DonnyP wrote: Also, a note on Iniquity's hard start: I think that routes with starts much harder than the rest of the route should influence the grade as much as those moves would should the have been 10, 30, or 70 feet up. If Iniquity had a start as easy as the rest of the section leading up to the no-hands rest, but that hard boulder problem occurred immediately after the rest, it would certainly be rated harder than .12b even though the climber should be totally fresh going into those moves. Though it is inconsistent to do so, we (some more than others) tend not to consider hard starts when grading routes. As someone else here said, though, if the moves stop the .12b climber, the route is properly harder than .12b. And I am not saying this so I can spray about a harder send; I haven't yet sent Iniquity anyway...

The start of Iniquity does affect the grade. The route is a nice 12a without it. In fact, some people do just skip the boulder problem by starting on Cell Block and walking over to Iniquity via a ledge. Not the most direct way, but definitely the path of least resistance.

The question shouldn't be does Iniquity stop the 12b Red River Climber. The question should be does the start of Iniquity stop the climber that can do any V4 that he or she walks up to.

Here are a few hard start 12b's that have stood the test of time to compare Inequity to.

Strevels gets in shape
Infectious
Stretcherous
Purdy Mouth

Send these and then try to call Iniquity 12c.

I like the comparison with Stretcherous. Iniquity is way longer, with some business at the very end, albeit a great rest midway. 12b works for me. Cell Block is not far off in difficulty either way.

except stretcherous sucks

toad857 wrote:except stretcherous sucks

Relative to iniquity, definitely.

JR,

I've sent all of those routes. I will now try to call Iniquity 12c. Iniquity is 12c.

There's definitely logic to your argument, but as someone I know to be able to pull hard bouldering moves, I think your perception is off. For that matter, I think Kipp is stronger than he gives himself credit for too. Purdy Mouth has had multiple breaks down low as well, by the way. And I think Iniquity is still a 12b even without the boulder problem, and that's speaking just to the endurance factor, which is my stronger point compared to bouldering, even factoring in the no-hands.

You know what are other good grade debates, Magnum Opus and Abiyoyo. Care to weigh in?

off topic, but the opening moves of 'Stay the Hand' were harder for me than the opening moves of 'Infectious.' I think its a weaker right arm/poorer feet issue. whatever, it's just kind of amazing how all these details matter for different people.

I found both grades bang on. Iniquity felt beastly hard until I got shown the easy beta for the bottom boulder problem. Once you've got that, it's not an issue. Cell Block Six is far, far, far more sustained than Iniquity. If you spent the season doing laps on Tuna Town, it probably won't feel sustained; if you're spending your time on routes at the Sanctuary, it'll probably feel quite stout. I think Cell Block Six is appropriately stiff for the grade, personally.

Green3 wrote:JR,

I've sent all of those routes. I will now try to call Iniquity 12c. Iniquity is 12c.

I respect your opinion.

Green3 wrote:There's definitely logic to your argument, but as someone I know to be able to pull hard bouldering moves, I think your perception is off.

That may be true but it doesn't change the fact that 19 people have voted for 12b and only 2 have voted for 12c. O wait. Make that 20 for 12b!!!

Green3 wrote:You know what are other good grade debates, Magnum Opus and Abiyoyo. Care to weigh in?

Not sure what you mean??? Are you asking if I think these are 12b? Off the cuff. I would say Abiyoyo 12a and Magnum Opus easier 12a.