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Without knowing the sample size of each age group to determine per capita giving, the numbers do not mean much. But with that said, all age groups should be giving more, either of time or money or both.

I choose to give financially because these days, the few times I am able to make it down to the Red, I would rather climb....although recently I made a route contribution to the PMRP. And I gave more money when I was making less.

Ok so this is going to sound bad BUT.... Given that the Red seems to be turning into an over crowded gumby fest with irresponsible belaying and behavior amounting to access restrictions - Torrent Falls, no dog rules - Muir, and serious accidents due to incompetent belaying and behavior; how can I feel good about giving any more money than my usual amount? What if I see a very grim future for the Red and climbing over all, call me old crusty and negative but my money isn't going change that future. More secured access, giving back to Muir Valley, hell even working a trail day is not going to change the serious trends and problems we are see at the Red. What can you young'ins tell us old crusty climbers who have been climbing at the Red since the early 90's, who have a long term perspectives, that will help us see a future worth investing in?

I know this all sound stupid and I am just being negative and unrealistic so just take it as a purely hypothetical situation/question.

We all give in our own ways, some more than others. What you have to remember when you give is you are making it possible for some stubborn college kid to get outside and see that there is more to existence than the books there nose has been in. They will be our next leaders. They will be the next Bob, Rick, Liz, and yourself.

Give them a chance. Change our future.

I am not sure I see it that way. Seems the more we give the more "they" build and develop and the more those "stubborn" college kids come and cause all the problems. "If you build it they will come", is a very real phenomenon. I am committed to finish what we started by financially contributing to paying off the loan for the PMRP but for me it kinda ends there.

kdelap wrote:We all give in our own ways, some more than others. What you have to remember when you give is you are making it possible for some stubborn college kid to get outside and see that there is more to existence than the books there nose has been in. They will be our next leaders. They will be the next Bob, Rick, Liz, and yourself.

Give them a chance. Change our future.

maybe that is the problem...too many college kids...I like the idea of them studying instead.

While I don't completely agree with you Rhunt, you are not being negitive. The recent trends we have been seeing (lats3-5 yrs) indicates accidents are going to happen more often and more seriously. Your not the only one truly concerned with the future of access with the direction climbing is going. I love that more people are falling for the sport but its been too many too fast. Education and the learning curve we all survived is not getting the time it deserves by new climbers. This is reflected in peoples attitudes when you approach them at the cliff with a suggestion for safety, and the relentless barrage of "consumers" we are dealing with on a weekly basis (I.E. the webers bathroom disaster two weeks ago)...... sad and scary indeed

I fear its an issue that can really impact our future.

weber wrote:True? Or were you just bantering?

clif wrote:walking through the Solarium sunday early afternoon oct. 10 i received a charitable donation of 4 bong hits from the assorted college age looking crowd.

Rick, i'm not sure if you had something to say in response to the pm i responded with to this post, your pm lacked smiley faces, so maybe this guy can help...

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtop ... =7&t=13429

caribe wrote:

pigsteak wrote:red herring...if you are in college, you "choose" to be homeless....that is a sympathy play. but libs are good at that last I heard college dorms pretty much took anyone, and gave youfinaicial aid to boot. ok, your turn to tell me how you didn't qualify for aid, and that you were kicked out for being a savant...

I'll share those dark days with you sometime Mr. Steak. Online would be way too personal, and it would be not-interesting in the way Dr. Phil and Jerry Springer are not interesting.

I was disqualified for financial aid and was kicked out for being a savant! They totally discriminate against us savants! Fuckin' anti-savantites!

rhunt wrote:Given that the Red seems to be turning into an over crowded gumby fest ... how can I feel good about giving any more money than my usual amount?

Interesting. Knowing this has caused me to do the exact opposite. I'm focused on giving a bit more, doing a bit more, knowing that it is just that much more necessary.

bcombs wrote:
Interesting. Knowing this has caused me to do the exact opposite. I'm focused on giving a bit more, doing a bit more, knowing that it is just that much more necessary.

Exactly.