How unsafe is climbing?

[Shamis]

Volume is certainly the #1 reason for all these accidents.

I think the other one is sport climbing, and specifically gym climbing. Gyms allow people to get strong very fast, in a padded environment where small belaying failures often go unpunished. People often start leading very quickly in these controlled environments, and then they head outdoors for some real climbing.

I think the red is particularly inundated with gym climbers because the red is inundated with midwesterners more so than any other area I've been to. Out of necessity, many of these people are almost exclusively gym climbers, and the red is their destination of choice, probably due to the huge selection of sport climbing to do.

So when they finally arrive outside, they are strong enough to get on something hard, and comfortable enough with the concept of climbing and leading to perhaps not take things as seriously as they should. And that little incident where their belayer dropped them 10 feet in the gym, that they'd forgotten about 2 months ago, suddenly becomes a painful reality when they are laying on the ground with a broken ankle.

When I learned to climb, leading was something you just didn't do until you really knew what you were doing, and even then you always started off on really easy stuff, and very few were willing to try it without a belayer they had lots of experience and trust in. Small incremental steps led up to the actual leading, and that typically included a lot of outdoor climbing. It also seems like people were more likely to have 1 standard partner that they climbed almost exclusively with for years at a time, whereas now people often come out with whoever they can find that is willing to make the trip.

Another issue I see is that many older experienced climbers often don't have the nerve, or feel it is their place, to correct the young climbers that come out and walk up our projects because it seems to be implied that stronger climbers must know what they're doing, even though that is clearly not true.

And the last issue I can think of, which is probably the most important is that: Gri-gri's and ATC's are often used interchangeably by climbers, and unfortunately, if you are comfortable with an ATC, you're probably dangerous with a gri-gri, and vice versa. We definitely need a good auto-locker that more accurately mimics the style of an ATC so we can eliminate this difficult to manage shift in instincts which is required for each device.

I think climbing is fairly safe if done right. I've been doing it 18 years, and have never had to take myself, or anybody I went climbing with to a hospital. I'll probably rappel to my death next weekend, but oh well, it's been a good run.

[caribe]

We definitely need a good auto-locker that more accurately mimics the style of an ATC so we can eliminate this difficult to manage shift in instincts which is required for each device.

I am convinced that the click-up is it.

[schwagpad]

Maybe part of the issue is that climbers are such a safety-oriented group. The primary function of most climbing equipment is to provide safety. So even if climbing is as safe as riding a bike, or driving a car, when an accident happens it is a big deal. Something went wrong, it was preventable. I don't think road bikers are on a forum discussing every biking accident. The danger of climbing seems amplified in this way.

There is a difference. When Mt. Biking you can fall of the bike for any number of reasons and get hurt, its part of the sport. You can make it as safe as possible by wearing protective gear but if your really pushing it on a bike, your going to fall off, and you accept that. With climbing, 99% of accidents happen as a result of negligence. They are completely avoidable and usually usually result in more serious consequences.

I was really thinking about road biking, where the consequences of an accident (getting hit by a car) are similar in severity to decking. The situations are also comparable in that usually someone made a mistake - either the driver didn't see the biker or the biker didn't see the car. Somehow it seems easier to accept the inevitability of human error with the biking situation. Maybe it's the fact that you cant control who is zooming by you at 100 mph. It would be like picking a random gumby to belay you every route at the crag. Nevertheless human error is inevitable in both situations, and at some level that is the risk that all of us accept every day at the crag. Pick the best belayer, make sure they aren't distracted etc. stuff will still sometimes go wrong.

[heavyc]

I used the click up one day with Caribe and I was impressed with it, I think he may be right, I think the Gri Gri is awesome in an experienced belayers hands but the release handle is designed like a brake on most other devices and I think when a less experienced belayer starts to realize they are doing something wrong they feel the need to do something active such as pulling back on the release handle whereas it would most often be better if they just let go of the device completely but both those actions don't jive with human instinct
another thought: almost every activity is more dangerous in males between 18-29 years of age

[ynot]

There are 10 times as many people climbing at the Red as when I started. There are going to be 10 times as many incidents. I think we all knew that eventually there would be a fatality. on the other side of the coin self rescue was the only option then and now good people are stepping up to the challenge of getting hurt climbers to a medical facility.
I remember climbers arguing gri-gri vs atc. The big concern with a gri gri was taking you hand off the brake to pay slack and freezing when the climber falls. Exactly what's happening. Hopefully gear makers can come up with something better or redesign it.There must be 30 different belay devices. Nothing is better than the Gri Gri? something that covers even user error is in order.
My only reason for not adopting the gri gri is the wieght. an atc is lighter and more multi-purpose. I had one once. I doubt if I can find it.
The sharpened biner on the bulliten board at Miguel's. Great Idea! I noticed it and took a minute to examin it. I'm sure others did too. makes you think and look at what you are clipping.
climbing can be dangerous. it's always been that way.I think we can expect to see lots more accidents simply because shit happens and the more people doing it the more shit happens. However I applaud all the people stepping up and trying to make it safer. If you see someone screwing up,tell them tactfully. It worked on me. I listened and took it seriously.I bet they will too.
My tailbone hurts. yes I fell past my belay down a leaf covered ramp and bounced my ass off a big rock. My second piece ripped out. Accidents happen to gym rats and experienced climbers.I won't blame gyms. I always had quality instruction at the gym and gym employees watching how climbers are belaying.
I'm still debating why we are all so obsessed with taking the risk we do. I found myself at a loss trying to explain it to a group of nuns today. They did notice my face light up at the mention of climbing.

[pigsteak]

ignore shamis..he emphatically tells his wife to completely let go of the gri gri when he falls..not exactly a thoughtful lesson for someone climbing for 18 years....

[dustonian]

•• I have been wondering about this question in light of all the incidents that we have had.
While this question was on my mind I saw:
- a belayer standing away from the wall while his leader was clipping bolt 2. There was too much slack paid out. The climber would have decked, if he had fallen, but he would not have had to deck with a better belay. These people were basically gym rats.

+1
You can see this almost every day at a busy crag... it's as if these folks just rely on dumb luck that the climber doesn't fall at the "wrong" moment (a nonsensical concept really), or maybe they think they can get that extra 3' out of the belay as soon as the climber falls? I don't get it.... it's such basic arithmetic, I just can't understand how they don't realize their buddy is soloing half the time in the first third of every pitch... it's kind of amazing to me that there aren't more groundfalls than we see already!

Nice post Art.

[Silk]

- being open and honest with your climbing partner about your perception regarding their practices.
- being receptive to criticism from your partner and from strangers.

Where to step up and say something is where I struggle. I've seen a busted foot and some (bad(+) near misses because I didn't say "hey, man, suck it in a little-dudes gonna deck" or "that is a super dicey set up you're rolling" (a pulley on a toprope). I was lambasted years ago when I tried to get someone to tie in proper rather than clip an 8 on a locker with the conversation basically "I've done this for years shuttup n0-0b!" so I guess my 'fragile ego' doesn't feel like being blasted even when I see terrible practices...

We climb trad in some sketchy areas where the cruxes are hard and near the ground frequently. Routes are shortish, rock can be friable...DFU territory. I jokingly (but seriously) say..."there's 5.13 climbing and then there's 5.13 belaying...."

[Shamis]

ignore shamis..he emphatically tells his wife to completely let go of the gri gri when he falls..not exactly a thoughtful lesson for someone climbing for 18 years....

What are the odds of a gri-gri failing during a fall of a 215 pound climber with no belayer interaction?
What are the odds of the belayer pinching the device?
What are the odds of my atc belayer getting dragged to the first bolt and knocked unconscious by my fat ass?

Scenario 1 is clearly the safest.

[kato]

Shamis and ynot already hit on this, but I think it is spot on. When I started climbing, it was pretty typical to go out and climb with someone with many years of experience and learn from them, and do this for a long time before striking out on your own. Now when I go to the gorge, it seems pretty common to run across people with a bag of new gear and ready to just learn by trial-and-error. Makes me think of the old saying, if at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you. Or people who have climbed with experienced climbers just a few times and feel like they have absorbed all the knowledge that their experienced friend took many years to gain.

After watching this for awhile, I think strict regulation if not outright bans are the way of the future.