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Charlie, I love you to death, but your post kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I am going to use your post as an example of an annoying trend I have been seeing lately.

It has been getting increasingly annoying when people in a position of authority in the climbing community continually complain, and or become verbally hostile at other climbers for things that come with the territory. RRGCC officials should be very well aware, when they take the difficult and underappreciated job, that they will be doing the majority of the work in the community. They will be doing most of the organizing, lobbying, fundraising, trailbuilding, and etc. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't get help, or ask the community for help, but cussing at people for something that is a part of the job is annoying. Could you imagine if a football player was constantly complaining about getting hit, or an accountant constantly complaining about doing math. Publicly displaying your frustration, though warranted, by verbally attacking the community is not going to help your cause.

Certain things just come with the territory, either suck it up, or do something positive to make it better. We all know the masses will complain and ask for something for nothing, but I expect better from people in a position of authority, even if it is a voluntary position.

there ya have it...diplomacy at it's finest.

and charlie, since I assume this was directed at me, I'll direct my question back to you? Who said I was worried about it happening "fast enough"? I personally could not care less if those climbs ever got re-opened. So I am not "whining" about their closure. You need a break since you seem overly sensitive these days. My point was that we need to keep the routes out of books (like we do oil crack, etc) or chop them. We indeed do have thousands of other lines to climb..why not get rid of these few closed lines?

And Toad, been the Hueco six times...great place, even with the restrictions. I was there before the restrictions too, and climbers as a user group were loving it to death.
We are very fortunate..that point is not lost on me. at all.

Here's the best part about it. I'm no longer president, I don't have to watch my mouth.

I can tell anyone I want to fuck off as much as I want and I can mean every word of it.

The years of justifying my actions to everyone with an opinion and keeping my mouth shut have festered long enough. I am now speaking as a peer, not as an authority figure.

You may want to get used to it.

Sorry Charlie, I thought you were president. Feel free to complain away, you are one of the masses now.

Wow...

Heh. I just think it's funny. The new Charlie is now the old Charlie and I know at least I missed him.

Batten down the hatches kids. I may even start climbing again.

awesome! so that you are not one of "them" anymore you can be one of us. Let's get together saturday and sneak up to the ..... The U*FS or ******** oil ** will never know. lol

Charlie is BACK!!!!!

Unfortunately I think I agree with piggie on the fact that the whole hardening idea was a scam on the bureaucrats part, trying to beat us with a war of attrition. And they essentially won. All I have to say is thank you to the RRGCC and the Access Fund for the PMRP!!!

piggy is on to something here. why not chop them them and delete them? They are already fenced and off limits. remove the temptation. It would suck for the FA but it already does.

charlie is right, albeit in crudely articulated way.
The FS is the pentultimate bureaucracy . Low level career federal employees who do a good job at managing the district, but really don't want to draw any scrutiny from any sea change/ decision making without checkng with everyone involved first. In the case of Military Wall closures, the cultural artifacts issue was raised by the District Archeologist back when this issue first came up. This issue was fully vetted and disspelled by the subcontractor who the RRGCC and Access fund funded to perform the level 2 eval of the site. There were no significant cultural artifacts found at this site. To quote one of the anthropologists who worked on the job, "You could stick a shovel in the ground in the Geologic area and come up with more meaningful artifacts than what was found under Thirsting Skull."
The other issue and the one that has made the FS reticent (read scared) to transgress is a Native American advocacy group that felt this area represented a significant native american site and wanted the closure to persist indefinitely. The FS is loath to get into a firefight with anyone, much less a group of zealots who will bring law suit.
The reality is ( and the reason I call bullshit on this) is that while one group can dictate terms to the FS through intimidation, the group that has one of the best cooperative working relationships with the FS of any user group on any district in the country is marginalized and taken advantage of to avoid the FS having to make the right decision.
Now, I wouldn't have a problem with this closure if it served a true and real purpose. If it did protect cultural resources, fine. If there was something in the ground that needed study at a distant time in the future when money and technology allowed, I am more than willing to sacrifice an entire cliff. You need look no further than the Hominy Hole to see how quickly the climbing community gets behind the greater good and subordinates itself to bigger issues than rock climbing.
But in this case, the FS is unwilling to do the right thing out of bureacratic intransigence and lack of will.
That my friends is the definition of bullshit.