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I agree, how is being on belay on a two point anchor any safer than being off belay and in direct to a two point anchor? I generally rappel when i clean, it is easier on the anchors and i am more comfortable lowering myself. I always check myself though before going off belay. I simply go in direct to both anchor bolts and then have my belayer give me sufficient slack until i am waiting the anchor and not the belayer.

Accidents happen, and this was a terrible one and reminds me of how dangerous cleaning an anchor can be. Everyone needs to remember the dangers involved with cleaning, rappelling, and climbing in general. My prayers and thoughts go out to the family of the victim of this tragic accident.

Also, that system only works if you are leading. Lots of anchor accidents happen during change overs when the climber cleans a route in TR and changes over to the anchors at the top--nothing below them to catch them if the anchor fails.

steep4me wrote:Also, that system only works if you are leading. Lots of anchor accidents happen during change overs when the climber cleans a route in TR and changes over to the anchors at the top--nothing below them to catch them if the anchor fails.

After climber unclips their rope from the last draw, clip the belayers end of the rope into that draw and leave it while you finish the route. If the anchor goes, you are saved by the last bolt.

I'm torn on the cleaning procedure. I use the bite through into the belay loop personally. I would be curious to understand the anchor gear impact of the following two scenarios:

1) Climber unties and threads their rope through the shuts and then pulls the rope through to the middle mark and raps.

2) Climber lowers off.

Obviously, the least impact is #1, but by how much? If we are talking about extending the life of a quicklink by 25%, is that worth it? Regarding the comment about the bite method being "messy", I thought so too at first, but cleaned it up over time. It's still the best method for new people IMO. They are never off, which is what matters, not the quicklink.

Edited to add that I still teach people both methods because there are some anchor setups where getting a bite through the chain is near impossible. These are few and far between though.

Abrasive wear is directly proportional to the normal force and distance. For simplicity we will assume a wear coefficient of 1.

wear = kld / h
(k = coefficient of wear (1 for simplicity), l = weight of rope or climber and rope, d = distance (1 for simplicity), h = hardness (1 for simplicity)

1) 10lb rope gets pulled across anchors twice
wear = 10lb rope x 2 times x 1 = 20lbs of material loss

2) 160lb climber lowers off anchors once.
wear = (160lb climber + 10lb rope) x 1 = 170lbs of material loss

Lowering results in abrasive wear 8.5 times faster than a rappel. That is a significant difference.

Thanks, Mike. That's perfect. Now only if the average climber weighed 160.

We should elect a governing body to oversee and approve procedures. We, as that governing body, should approach State legislatures with a plan for governance and training. Some crucial piece of gear should only be able to be bought with a license i.e. rope or harnesses. This license can be obtained by going through the proper training via the governing body.

(States that people hunt in have hunter training courses and you can't hunt in those states unless you have a training certificate. So doing this isnt that big of a stretch).

Levels of licenses can be handed out. One for sport, trad, aid and another for bolting, yes bolting. Cause any jack in the world can buy a drill and go crazy. We need to do this now! before this "rash" turns into an epidemic! We need a governing body. Procedures, Licenses and enforcement! DO THIS BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE

That's a great idea Clevis. If that happens, I will only free solo and spray about my free ascents on this forum and especially to any and every kid I see because it's COOL. I will then, in turn, inspire many generations of free soloists that will enter the Gorge and tear it up!

go ahead, give me a ticket...

You guys don't understand! If we don't come up with some sort of governing body to enforce proper techniques, the land managers will shut down all climbing in the state.
I propose a voluntary moratorium on retail rope sales in Kentucky. We need to approach retailers and have them only sell ropes to people who already have ropes. No new rope sales to gumbies. At least until we can formulate a course of action!

sounds like an ulterior motive to cut down on the number of new climbers in the gorge, very clever Mr. Hitch.