RRC Archives

Meadows wrote:I heard one of the challenges for the emergency crew was getting to the crags. We are working on getting a document for the emergency crews with non-climber directions ("we're at the Darkside" doesn't work for SAR) and GPS coords.

I will also be posting the information in the next week or two on the PMRP kiosks for the respective crags in the area.

For areas without kiosks -and there are many- I strongly recommend having directions with you if you're not carrying a guidebook.

Thanks for posting this Stephanie. A little history here. After two incidents in Wolfe County wherein the 911 Dispatcher was told to go to Roadside and Emerald City, he didn't have a clue what the caller was talking about, and significant time was lost in directing SAR and EM to the scene. Then we had a delayed response because the dispatcher did not know where Muir Valley was nor could he seem to copy down simple instructions. So, I made up a list of climbing areas in Wolfe County and driving instructions to each. I've given this to Wolfe Co. Dispatch three times, and still they don't seem to use it. On two occasions the Dispatcher toned out our SAR Team to "some place called "Roadside." But he couldn't get any more specific info. That was because the callers were from out of town and didn't know the local landmarks or place names. As the only climber on the team, I was able to get us to the right place.

Very frustrating.

Stephanie took my notes and did a super job in refining and formatting this info for Wolfe Co. and is in the process of adding all the climbing areas in the Gorge to it. Thanks, big time Stephanie!!

Now, our challenge will be to get the Wolfe, Powell, Menifee, and Lee County Dispatchers to actually use this document.

Rick

mike_a_lafontaine wrote:One note on GPS coordinates, if anyone does this, use the UTM NAD 27 setting on your GPS. UTM data is much easier to decipher than lat/long. The NAD 27 datum is what is used on official USGS maps and what most SAR groups used, at least it is what we used at CMSAR up in northern Michigan.

Good suggestion. Wolfe County SART uses UTM NAD 27, as directed by Kentucky Division of Emergency Management. We also have a program to convert from lat/long to UTM.

weber wrote:

Meadows wrote:I heard one of the challenges for the emergency crew was getting to the crags. We are working on getting a document for the emergency crews with non-climber directions ("we're at the Darkside" doesn't work for SAR) and GPS coords.

I will also be posting the information in the next week or two on the PMRP kiosks for the respective crags in the area.

For areas without kiosks -and there are many- I strongly recommend having directions with you if you're not carrying a guidebook.

Thanks for posting this Stephanie. A little history here. After two incidents in Wolfe County wherein the 911 Dispatcher was told to go to Roadside and Emerald City, he didn't have a clue what the caller was talking about, and significant time was lost in directing SAR and EM to the scene. Then we had a delayed response because the dispatcher did not know where Muir Valley was nor could he seem to copy down simple instructions. So, I made up a list of climbing areas in Wolfe County and driving instructions to each. I've given this to Wolfe Co. Dispatch three times, and still they don't seem to use it. On two occasions the Dispatcher toned out our SAR Team to "some place called "Roadside." But he couldn't get any more specific info. That was because the callers were from out of town and didn't know the local landmarks or place names. As the only climber on the team, I was able to get us to the right place.

Very frustrating.

Stephanie took my notes and did a super job in refining and formatting this info for Wolfe Co. and is in the process of adding all the climbing areas in the Gorge to it. Thanks, big time Stephanie!!

Now, our challenge will be to get the Wolfe, Powell, Menifee, and Lee County Dispatchers to actually use this document.

Rick

K a serious post from me for once - any help we put together for 911 etc has to become part of their standard operating proceedure or they - most likely are not allowed to use it for all kinds of reasons.

It may benefit us to take the proactive stance and maybe know and list hwy mile marks or even gps locs in our guides so that people may give more accurate and standard waypoints to emergency responders. My wife works in emergency communications and I have heard her talk about this kind of thing often.

weber wrote: Good suggestion. Wolfe County SART uses UTM NAD 27, as directed by Kentucky Division of Emergency Management. We also have a program to convert from lat/long to UTM.

Another good idea for folks who spend a lot of time in remote areas is to get an amature radio licence. When cell phones have no signal and those cheapo FRS/GMRS radios from Walmart can't contact the belayer at the route 10 feet away, a nice dual band hand held will get you into direct contact with SAR groups, especially if you come prepared knowing what the local repeaters are broadcasting.

In all honesty, I think I could generate the UTM data for most of the RRG trailheads and intersection in a day with TOPO. Even if the dispatch operators have no idea what it is, if there was an accident, and a climber has the UTM plots for the trail head and all the trail intersections, sending that info to SAR would be a huge block of time cut off any rescue efforts.

Meadows/Rick/Mike/whomever - Once UTM data and/or driving directions have been determined/generated for SAR use (i.e. formatted optimally for the dispatcher and teams), can they be posted somewhere for public download so that those of us that don't have the time/knowledge/resources to do so accurately can print off copies to keep in their packs?

That way should the event arise, whomever calls 911 can just read off that information.

For now, the guide book (online and print) provide great information.

mike_a_lafontaine wrote:Another good idea for folks who spend a lot of time in remote areas is to get an amature radio licence. When cell phones have no signal and those cheapo FRS/GMRS radios from Walmart can't contact the belayer at the route 10 feet away, a nice dual band hand held will get you into direct contact with SAR groups, especially if you come prepared knowing what the local repeaters are broadcasting.

In all honesty, I think I could generate the UTM data for most of the RRG trailheads and intersection in a day with TOPO. Even if the dispatch operators have no idea what it is, if there was an accident, and a climber has the UTM plots for the trail head and all the trail intersections, sending that info to SAR would be a huge block of time cut off any rescue efforts.

Excellent advice. I still have a concern about the proficiency of local dispatchers. A few nights ago, a caller reported to 911 that he was benighted somewhere near Lost Branch Trail. The dispatcher told us that a "guy was lost out on a branch trail somewhere in the Gorge." We would advise anyone calling 911 to patch or refer the caller to the SAR Leader to ensure accurate info gathering.

Radios are a huge problem with SAR in the Gorge. In the deeper recesses, nothing seems to work. Local teams from the four county area use UHF emergency freqs and rely on the county repeaters, which are one step up from 2 tin cans and a string. We seem to lose comms more often than not and have actually found FRS to work very well for short distances. Team members carry throw-away KMart FRS radios, and they've never failed us for line-of-sight comms. But of course, as Mike said - no good for long distances.

Amateur radio, in theory, could provide improved communication, and as an Extra Class Ham, I'd love to see more of it being used in SAR ops - especially VHS. Two problems - lack of decent repeaters and lack of hams. Even though there is no longer a Morse Code requirement, few seem to take the interest to get even a basic Technician Class license.

Rick
W9QZ

A "ham-in-a-day" course might be well received if publicized. Lots of people could get their technician license and enough information to effectively use a VHF radio in an emergency, however the next question is how many of them will actually go the extra step to BUY a VHF radio. Unfortunately, they are not $20 for a two-pack at Wal-Mart!

Mike
KD8FBM

I haven't spoken in this thread yet, so I'll preface these remarks with my best wishes and strongest hopes for Mike's recovery. He sounds like an amazing guy, and a fighter.

weber wrote: Excellent advice. I still have a concern about the proficiency of local dispatchers. A few nights ago, a caller reported to 911 that he was benighted somewhere near Lost Branch Trail. The dispatcher told us that a "guy was lost out on a branch trail somewhere in the Gorge." We would advise anyone calling 911 to patch or refer the caller to the SAR Leader to ensure accurate info gathering.

I know all cell phones now sold were required to be emergency GPS locatable. Why don't the dispatchers have access to this information? I mean, if somebody gets through on a cell phone, shouldn't they be able to look up where they are?

neuroshock wrote:Meadows/Rick/Mike/whomever - Once UTM data and/or driving directions have been determined/generated for SAR use (i.e. formatted optimally for the dispatcher and teams), can they be posted somewhere for public download so that those of us that don't have the time/knowledge/resources to do so accurately can print off copies to keep in their packs?

That way should the event arise, whomever calls 911 can just read off that information.

Here is what I think would work. These data are a bit rough, as I generated it from transposing the Outragegis.com maps onto my USGS topo map. Better data could be generated simply by hiking the trails with a decent GPS device.

Anyway, imagine you are at Left Flank and someone falls at Maypop. You get in touch with the dispatcher and simply give her these numbers, which perhaps are found in the guidebook in the future:

Martin Fork Parking Lot : 5216E, 89004N
Martin Fork Trailhead: 5170E, 88902N
Military Wall Trail Intersection: 5200E, 88814N, stay on east (main) trail.
Left Flank Trail Branch, 5268E, 88725N take easterly branch up hill.
Left Flank Crag 5435E, 88677N

Those numbers may not mean a thing to you, but to SAR with USGS maps (which have the NAD 27 UTM grids on them) you just gave point to point directions on where their closest parking access is and where they need to follow trails to.