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JR wrote:The training paradox. I believe and practice much of what you are advising, and I have seen benefits. But why is it the strongest guys that I personally know really do none of this shit?

It doesn't matter what your friends are doing, it matters what you need to be doing. People are different. Some people are good at climbing, others are good at math, etc.. Some people have to work a lot harder to climb 5.1X than others...I'm one of those people that have to work really hard. Which are you?

So who knows more about how to improve at climbing? The person who climbs 5.13 off the couch or someone who had to work their way up from 10b?

For that matter, how much have these "strong guys" improved? Do they improve, or have they been climbing at the same level for years? The vast majority of climbers don't improve much at all after their first two or three years of climbing. Have they reached the absolute limit of their genetic potential? I highly doubt it.

I think it's funny when people say they disagree with the pyramid system...yet their spray shows they basically climb like the pyramid would suggest. I don't think it's assumed the pyramid continues down forever...I'd say it's worth thinking about for a number grade below your hardest send or what you are attempting to send. And it's only a guideline - albeit one that most people will end up doing anyway.

Well said Mike

It doesn't matter what your friends are doing, it matters what you need to be doing.

Who do you think is the best judge of what I should be doing? Me or another climber?

So who knows more about how to improve at climbing? The person who climbs 5.13 off the couch or someone who had to work their way up from 10b?

Not sure.

For that matter, how much have these "strong guys" improved? Do they improve, or have they been climbing at the same level for years?

The odd thing is the strongest guys I have climbed with have been sort of gym rats and rarely measure themselves against established problems. When they do get out they send grades that I can't grasp(mini pun). They talk about I feel week today or I felt strong. This isn't really weight lifting. So I can't count up the plates and say that bitch is really strong. I can't say for sure if they are stronger one year to the next.

JR wrote:
Who do you think is the best judge of what I should be doing? Me or another climber?

The best judge is someone who can assess your weaknesses and has some knowledge of, and experience with training methods to address those weakness. In most sports, that would be your coach. As a climber, you have to take that responsibility.

mike_anderson wrote:In most sports, that would be your coach. As a climber, you have to take that responsibility.

Or... you could hop on the Short Bus.

mike_anderson wrote:

JR wrote:
Who do you think is the best judge of what I should be doing? Me or another climber?

The best judge is someone who can assess your weaknesses and has some knowledge of, and experience with training methods to address those weakness. In most sports, that would be your coach. As a climber, you have to take that responsibility.

Agreed. Self evaluation is difficult for most people. They think they know... but often times the root of the problem is deeper. Someone may continuously fall off of a power endurance crux, and assume their issue is as simple as power endurance, when in fact it could be that their body positions aren't efficient, or their footwork is sloppy, or they're overgripping.

A coach, whether a 3rd party or a self-coach, has to be able to break things down to their simplest form to see the problems.

The pyramid thing worked for me but it had more to do with learning how to climb then getting stronger. I woud take the strategies I use while working a route to the next route and build from that. Sometimes it was simply working through the fear of falling in a crux section or learning how and that I could keep climbing while really really pumped, or how to shake out better or crimp better, etc. Sure I got stronger in the process but I think I really got smarter. For me, the best training I can ever do for climbing is to train cardo and get as lean and as fit as possible - that always made the most difference for me.

well put rhunt- good break down between strategery and trainery -

i've been climbing 5 years now and just decided it is time to train. started off bouldering and got to a level i had fun at and stayed there for years. started going to the red about two years ago and realized i sucked at routes.... but just kept on sucking.

well, my friends told me i needed to climb more throughout my climbing history but i was a once a weeker (gym/outside). I think there just comes a time where you get tired of sucking and are willing to put in the extra effort.

it's kinda hard to find your own faults for most so i would say it definitely helps to have others who train to get where they are at around you. Coaches are awesome! if you can get one i would highly recommend it! They keep ya honest and motivated. learn as much as you can from them and read some crap on training to boot.

I think the concept of a coach is great, but the sad truth is there are few out there that know what they are doing. Take every opportunity to get constructive criticism from anyone you can. It is difficult to identify your weaknesses, and often another perspective (or several) is what you need.

When it comes to deciding what to do about those weaknesses, you need to be more careful. Many "coaches" suffer from "flavor of the month" syndrome, where they're into whatever the latest hot workout is, or they're a one trick pony: they know how to train one way, so you better hope it happens to be your weakness.

It just so happens that many climbers are this way as well. So, if you ask around enough, maybe you can find someone who knows how to train power, someone who trains endurance a lot, etc. and you can get good methods from various sources. I think I have a pretty good handle on training strength and power, and technique for thin face climbing, but I have a lot to learn about training low intensity power endurance, and technique for steep terrain. Hopefully I can pick up some of these things from folks around here.