Of sport, trad and the point system...

Post by **Myke Dronez** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:25 pm

So I'm a gumby- period. I've been climbing just less than a year and been leading trad for about six months now. Between trad and sport there is about a number grade difference between what I can send. It's not because trad is more difficult, it's because trad is headier- think about it - how often do you whip on gear compared to bolts. The perceived difficulty of trad is attributed to the conservative nature of most people's trad efforts and not the difficulty of the climbing. If I was willing to slot a 4 nut and chug past it into uncertainty and take the repeated whips like I will on a sport climb than I'm sure the grades would be nearly even. This becomes painfully obvious when the rest of your climbing party sends the line on TR that had you sketched and pissing yourself. If you're plugging gear on easy cheese trad lines but are too scared to up the ante into whipper territory than pig is right, it's just a cop out- so drink a cold one, rack up, get good gear and charge on my brother!

Post by **rjackson** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:16 pm

pigsteak wrote:ok, now we can lock. the steak has spoken.

I agree that my trad numbers will get close to my sport numbers after a couple years, but I still believe that trad is in essence more difficult than sport (for a number of the reasons listed here).

Basically it's like religion. I've read the texts and visited the places of worship. But in the end I have to ask the question out loud and then make a decision for myself. And only I have to live with it.

Thanks to all for appeasing my own curiousity.

Post by **DriskellHR** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:52 pm

I agree with piggie But I have no idea what i'm talking about

Post by **Brentucky** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:04 pm

Preach on Myke Dronez, preach on! Well said! By the way, you and your partner are hella gumbies (see, I told you guys I'm useful for my fluffing, even if it is only fluffing gumbies!).

and piggie, i can't help pumping out on those damn gumby 5.10's, but don't you worry i'm just waiting for the day when i can downgrade all your chossy 5.11's!

Post by **Crankmas** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:10 pm

keeping score is for douche bags that wear jock straps just rage and gush the points you can flush

Post by **512OW** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:45 pm

bushwhacker wrote:5.11c trad = 5.12a sport given that you are equally good at both, the trick is being equally good at both...

I've said it 3839462346923 times, and I'll say it again.

5.11c trad=5.11c sport.

rjackson, to answer some of your questions:

Between 12+ trad and 13- sport, I find 13- sport to be harder. I climbed 12+ trad doing essentially no training but weekend climbing. No way I could have climbed 13 sport without hard, focused training. Its just harder to train for hard trad...

The reason most hard all around climbers have a disparity of 2 letter grades between sport and trad lies in the fact that there are far fewer hard trad lines. Why? Trad climbing is trivial compared to sport. A hand jam can only get so bad before it becomes a good fist... or a good finger lock. A sloper that gets worse becomes, well, unusable. Same for crimps, pockets, etc...

I used to be of the opinion that trad was graded harder. I've changed my mind. If we could train in a gym for trad like we can for sport, it would be no big deal...

Post by **rjackson** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:03 pm

512OW wrote: rjackson, to answer some of your questions:

Thanks.

That makes sense.

Post by **MSMITH** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:15 am

Crankmas wrote:better find christ bro

Believe it was "Brah"

Post by **L K Day** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:54 am

rj - You pretty well knew the answer before you asked, so it's a rhetorical question, no?

Yes, Odub is right, 5.11 sport equals 5.11 trad. Still, this statement greatly oversimplifies because it only takes into account the difficulty or sustained nature of the moves. There is far more to difficulty than that. Five point whatever says nothing about how challenging the pro is, or how serious the route. There are thousands of 5.12 sport climbers in this world who will never be good enough to do the Bachar/Yarian at what? 5,11c-d? That's because the Bachar/Yarian is off-the-chart in terms of mental difficulty for the vast majorty of climbers.

A point system that would take every aspect of difficulty into consideration would be stupidly complex.

Don't ever admit you keep score, it's just lame. Go climbing.

Post by **rjackson** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:16 am

L K Day wrote:rj - You pretty well knew the answer before you asked, so it's a rhetorical question, no?

&

Don't ever admit you keep score, it's just lame.

&

Go climbing.

Correct.
(But I was able to glean a little more insight from a couple of you guys, thanks.)

&

Agreed.
(Sometimes I just gotta comment on the Emporer's new clothes.)

&

Done.
(Well, as soon as Saturday gets here anyway.)