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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:37 pm
by mgad
in
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:46 pm
by charlie
kato wrote:charlie wrote:
My only point is these things are not unique to the teachings of Christ.
I would be remiss in not mentioning that Christ did very strongly distinguish his teachings in saying that he was the only way through which a man might be reconciled to God. I know many have problems with the exclusivity of such a statement, but it would be a misrepresentation not to point it out.
Ah yes, but context is everything. Some people may believe this statement intends to contrast his teachings with inherited teachings of a corrupt church (money lenders etc.), or it's justification for dismissing everything in the old testament, or maybe with other clans and belief systems inherited from maybe roman or egyption cultural influences, or maybe it's the jews down the road, or the muslims down the street. Who can truly understand the intent of this statement (supposedly) made thousands of years ago?
Personally, I'd hesitate to believe Christ (or God) would be so proud or egomaniacal to say good people working to promote positive influences in the universe could not get to heaven (or even worse, suffer eternal damnation) through the simple technicality of following a different teacher.
Ideas like these are why I lost my faith many years ago and although I think I have regained as much trust and faith in a benign force as anyone here it is only through the kind of critical exploration of multiple texts and influences that I got there. I'm comfortable operating outside Ultra's simple minded religious structures.
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:48 pm
by Zspider
kato wrote:
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD...
Zspider: I don't see that God ever asks us to give up reason or rationality. There is still plenty of room for faith, but it does not seem like a blind faith to me.
Like always, good comments, kato.
First, in the Old Testament there were times when a lot less faith was required to believe in God than what is necessary now. For one thing, God did just as you mention in Isaiah. He spoke to people. There were also powerful miracles for further evidence.
Second, I think that faith is by definition blind. At least in the eyes of Paul3b's sacred "logic and reason." But faith is not deaf. Be it spirit, soul, indigestion, Freud's superego or Jung's archetypes, faith is fueled from a voice from within.
ZSpider
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm
by squeezindlemmon
"Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe." - St. Augustine
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:08 pm
by Wes
loki wrote:" That poem, "The Walrus and the Carpenter," that's an indictment of organized religion. The Walrus, with his girth and his good nature, he obviously represents either Buda, or with his tusks, the Hindu elephant god Lord Ganesha. Now, that takes care of your Eastern religions. Now, the Carpenter, which is obviously a reference to Jesus Christ, who was raised a carpenter's son. He represents the Western religions. Now, in the poem, what do they do? What do they do? They dup all these oysters into following them, and then proceed to shuck and devour the helpless creatures en mass. Now, I don't know what that says to you, but to me it says that following these faiths, based on mythological figures insures the destruction of ones inner-being. Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions, out of, out of fear of some intangible parent figure that shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says, "Do it . . . do it and I'll fuckin' spank you!"
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:40 pm
by Paul3eb
mgad wrote:I thought you said there was no good or bad. What's up? Can't have it both ways. Why don't you drop those two words from your vocabulary Paul3eb
i'm not having it both ways.. i'm labeling their actions as "good" and "bad" according to my moral constitution. as i said earlier, i believe they exist only to help organize the world. they do, however, lead to problems. the idea that something has some inherent quality of "good" or "bad", though, is something i don't believe is true.
as for the "we didn't touch" thing.. it was a joke.. laugh
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:41 pm
by Ultra
simple-minded..I never would have thought that I would be known a s simple-minded.
So Here's the deal... If you ask any Christian whose "belief system" was "more correct", You would find that most people on here who espouse Christianity. They (the Christians) would come down firmly on my side. Which is the correct side. Not saying that I am infallibal but saying that I seek out what is true.
You say that I am simple. Here's the thing. I am trying to explain Christianity to non-Christians. I'm trying to keep it simple so that you understand in no uncertain terms what I am saying. So listen here and I'll say it one more time....
By no other name...
By no other "belief system"
There is only one way to Heaven.
There is only one way to "enlightenment"
That is through belief and faith in the one and only son of the living God, Jesus.
Born of a virgin,beaten and crucified on a cross,Risen from the grave and imparted to us as a Comforter until he comes again, His Holy Spirit. Amen"
You call me simple...thats because it is simple.
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:45 pm
by Paul3eb
Zspider wrote:Paul3b's sacred "logic and reason."
i never thought "logic and reason" were sacred.. no more than science or beauty. they have their place, function, and use.. but they also have their failures.
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:45 pm
by Ultra
Paul3eb, I'm sorry. Everyone seems to be beating around the bush with this so I'll tell you in no uncertain terms.
There is good and evil in this world.
It doesn't matter whether you believe in it or not. Thats just the way it is. To think otherwise is to try to go through life with your eyes closed. You need to abandon this idea. It is flawed to its very core.Reassess
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:02 pm
by Paul3eb
Ultra wrote: It doesn't matter whether you believe in it or not.. To think otherwise is to try to go through life with your eyes closed..
