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kneebar wrote:Maybe the best thing for torrent to do is close the crag for a couple of months. The point would be well made to everyone. Sometimes you don't know what you have until its gone (for a while anyway)!

I think it would take the better part of a season (a.k.a. "the rest of the year") for this to work. Also, they would need to announce it as a permanent closure, and threaten to have the bolts chopped, in order to get the attention of the climbing community.

Of all the critical points in Mark's post (dog leash/poop, appropriate parking, donation, audible 'swearing', and human waste), it seems like the human waste issue is currently the most difficult without more redily available facilities. I take Mark's statement seriously, and from what I read, he doesn't want people even whizzing in the bushes far from the cabins. That could be a bit tough to get full compliance on. The other thing I worry about is poop - a little pizza/coffee/exercise induced urgency could make it tough to get all the way from the Windy Corner area back to the BBQ...

What can we do, realistically, to deal with this serious concern on Mark's part?

Is the old outhouse gone? It wasnt that far from Windy corner.

Here is what Diane and I thought of-
Ban all parking at the B and B and across the street. Sign it and tow if need be.
Have eight parking spots at Marks/Via Ferrata for climbers.
Have each party (5 people per car max) sign in and pay $5 to park.
Each person would sign in and in so doing agree to the rules (everything Mark stipulated).
Each person would get a flourescent colored badge or license that would have to be visible at all times (like used to be done at Eden park in Cinci).
Covered in the 5 dollar parking fee would be use of his bathrooms.

These mechanisms give Mark and staff control over volume of use - which seems to be the real problem. It gives him a name and whatever other identifying info he wants on the sign in form to know who is on his land. Now, someone is accountable. He and his staff can easily walk past the cliffs and do a quick head count to assure everyone at Torrent is on the up and up. Anyone caught is summarily banned, kicked off the property, whatever.

Perhaps the most effective part of this is that it is a bit of a pain in the ass, which will make many folks choose to go somewhere else, and only those who want to deal with it will climb at Torrent.

The thing is that Mark doesn't want to police his property. He's way too busy doing other things. He just wants respect or it closes. And he deserves as much.

I am sure that is the case. But if he doesn't want to provide a bit of paternalism (telling folks how to behave) and then policing it a bit, folks won't behave.

There isn't the ability to reach every climber who will use the convenience of Torrent and tell them how to behave. Peer pressure won't reach everyone. The only way to assure that everyone gets the message is for each person to have it told to them each time they come on the property, and then be held accountable.

yup..old and crusty is right....either he polices or we police...either way, this place is closed by the end of summer. just the reality.

Listen up folks. It is going to be up to us. Trust me on this. Mark and Cathy will not be policing the crag. Mark is working his ass off in New Orleans and Cathy is left to bust her ass here and the girls are busy helping with the businesses while still getting their school work done. So it really pisses me off that a bunch of spoiled kids are down here fucking things up while Mark and Cathy's kids are busting their young asses because they are the real deal. Good kids. Good people. Good citizens. Why? Because of mom and dad. That's why. So don't be saying what Mark and Cathy should or should not do about about fucking climbing. They have their hands full with the real shit. Their fucking lives!

How do I know this? I am their friend, that's why.

I like the part about having only a limited amount of parking at the BBQ. This would limit access and you could put a kiosk and a sign in sheet at the kiosk to the trail going to the cliff, along with a bucket for donations. No need for mark and kathy to police or do any extra work. We could even make the kiosk and other things if needed.

This would limit amount of people, the restricted access would get peoples attention, the longer walk in would make people not want to go as much, they would have to walk past the rules and sign in, and climbers could still police each other and the meyers wouldn't.

that would work. Let's approach mark and Kathy and offer to do it for them.

I think that this is the best way to go as well. The only sticky part is that the gate to the bbg is closed, so there would have to be set climbing hours, and hopefully, people would be out in time.