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Whoneedsfeet hasn't been paying attention. Nobody, not me, nor anyone else has been arguing that you must climb only on gear. But Piggie has been making an argument for bolting everything. An idiotic argument at that, as ynp1 has so succinctly pointed out. If it's all about "the movement" then save a lot of money and just top-rope it all.

Andrew wrote:What the hell does "in general" mean?

WTF R u getting sensitive? Do you expect me to start listing shit?

Piglet get thee out of the trad forum; your words are anathema here. You are an unclean beast that has returned to its own vomit for sustenance. If you continue this trajectory your abode will be made desolate, and shall become the dwelling place of the eagle owl and the big snake. There shall not be left a stone upon a stone in your kingdom. You will wonder the wilderness 7 years feeding on wild grasses even as does the beast of the field.

You all still carrying on? Don't you have to work or something?

Disclaimer- I haven't read any of the previous drivel in this thread.

Pediculus humanus: the human body louse survives only on humans and pigs.

Jeff wrote:You all still carrying on? Don't you have to work or something?

Disclaimer- I haven't read any of the previous drivel in this thread.

says the guy on a week's vacation at the Red.....

and of course larry is misconstruing what I have said regarding bolted lines....

one last time. can someone please explain to me why we bolt gear protectable faces here at the red without a sniffle of indignation from the moldy oldies, but bolting gear protectable cracks is the sign of satan? rock is rock is rock.....people bury there heads and say "bolting cracks is bad, bolting faces is good"......why???????

dustin has the best answer in that we have way more face climbing opportunities than crack lines at the red.

(as an aside, why does no one ever chop "head and shoulders" if they are so offended?)

get your panties out of your crack mr. day, and listen closely. the only reason cracks are sacred is because there was no technology to safely climb the faces 30 years ago. once bolting became the norm then the vast majority of climbing has taken place with the aid of some sort of fixed protection....surely we trad climbers are not so smug to deny that. how many hundreds (thousands) of bolts line the faces of yosemite? how many gear climbs have bolts protecting blank expanses, and gasp belay stations (the outrage!) seems the black/white party line answer is used only when convenient.

from pin scars to ripped copperheads and dead rap trees, gear climbers have done their share of damage to the environment over the years, so there is no holy high ground from which to preach.

so what is my position....respect the vision of the first ascensionist. honor the tradition of a locale. period.

Piggie, I don't agree with Dustin's logic. The point being that just because you put a bolt beside the crack does not in any way limit some ones ability to place gear in said crack. They just don't like the increased accessibility to sport wankers. I don't see how it is "preserving the precious few trad lines" of the Red.

Wrong. I don't like the visual aesthetic of shiny (or rusty) bolts next to perfect gear placements, sbd aesthetics matter in climbing. You should learn to climb trad Ian, it's actually quite easy, very rewarding, and it opens up an infinity of options in terms of places you can climb. There is no excuse for not knowing how to place gear after so many years of climbing. You would enjoy it and do well. Convenience and "accessibility" are not always the end-all be-all if you are seeking solitude and a natural experience. And to be quite honest, trad cragging almost anywhere in the US is highly "accessible" if you have even an iota of self-reliance.

Actually Kipp, the gear on head & shoulder would be 75% crap since that flake is expanding. The difference between bolts being acceptable or not is necessity: they are necessary at anchors to belated and descend, and necessary to safely protect blank faces when no other options are necessary. They are not necessary next to vertical cracks or on faces with horizontal cracks (& very occasionally, deep pockets). I am all for leaving more mixed routes and traditionally protected face climbs and wish people would not put bolts next to bomber horizontal placements if most of the pitch is naturally protectable. So-called mixed routes are super fun and it leaves fewer decaying zimc-plated zinc-plated hardware for the next generation to maintain & replace -- trust me, it's a pain in the ass.

dustonian wrote:Wrong. I don't like the visual aesthetic of shiny (or rusty) bolts next to perfect gear plscements, sbd aesthetics matter in climbing. You should learn to climb trad Ian, it's actually quite easy, very rewarding, and opens up an infinity of options in terms of places you can climb.

Of course I am playing devil's advocate. But I don't that "I don't like it" is not a very strong argument. Oh, and at some point I do want to and will learn to climb trad. Maybe on R. Kelly