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It's just a shame that these dudes took it into their hands to do something so controversial.

Nobody would have argued with them if they instead spent that time improving trails, picking up litter, removing invasive plants.... just seems selfish.

lena_chita wrote:I don't like the fact that draws were removed because it seems like there is no united opinion in the community. One side is raising money and equipping the routes with perma-draws, the other side is stripping them. It is inefficient, it creates more tension in the community, and it does nothing to address the underlying problems of crowds.

Agreed who elected these self-entitled dbags the police of the red? Lets not divide the community and start a bolt war. The community consensus was to give PD's a shot last year, how do two or three people think that their opinion over rides everyone else? Typical sport climbers...

why does everyone think that "community" consensus was to equip the Lode last year with PD's..... for those of us who thought it was a bad precedent, we merely voiced our opinion by not contributing to the cause. just because the money was raised and the draws hung, are we anywhere near able to say it was community consensus that put them there. just like the draws being stripped, it was a select few who paid for the equipping of the Lode with PD's.

right now so many are focusing like there are only two alternative solutions:

1-steel PD's on every bolt on every route at the Lode
2-old manky aluminum which will kill someone.

can we really be that short sighted? how about a consensus on the one "warmup 12" at the undertow that deserves perma steel draws, and then as a community we declare that all other routes need to be kept free of mank and steel draws so that each new user can enjoy the route as they see fit. we just spread the word that when a climber leaves the Red, they need to take their draws with them..is that really a huge inconvenience?

I can't put my finger on it, but there is something else at work in this undercurrent of unrest.

pigsteak wrote: I can't put my finger on it, but there is something else at work in this undercurrent of unrest.

The undercurrent is that everyone is painfully aware that the Red is being loved to death before our very eyes, we all have a part in it, and there are no easy ways to deal with it. Different people are venting their frustrations in different ways.

pigsteak wrote:why does everyone think that "community" consensus was to equip the Lode last year with PD's..... for those of us who thought it was a bad precedent, we merely voiced our opinion by not contributing to the cause. just because the money was raised and the draws hung, are we anywhere near able to say it was community consensus that put them there. just like the draws being stripped, it was a select few who paid for the equipping of the Lode with PD's.

It seems like everyone is saying community consensus because there was not a huge uprising against them they way there is against their stripping...people just assume that because there wasn't a big rrc.com forum that everyone thought they were a good idea

All can i say in response is that i am honestly very sad that so many people are against trying to restore some ethics and personal responsibility to climbers at the Red. Also, nothing was stolen, and i am someone who helped raised money for "perma-draws", however, nothing was EVER discussed on where these should be placed.... All climb-tech and chain draws have or will either be placed to aid in the safety of cleaning steep routes, or on the anchors. No majority decision was made to put them on certain routes, so why does there need to be a majority decision on moving them? Im not 100% against having fixed draws on some sport routes.. but when it becomes a free for all venue for extreme over use as well as abuse of this gear and the route, then that is a problem. Did anyone that helped to raise money for fixed gear have in mind that it will best used for someone beat the hell out of it only to get half way up a route taking over an hour and then bail??? Is that what it is for?? is that what are crags are for??, i believe you can can do whatever you wish, i never made a statement against someone who wants to hang dog all day on a route that is 2 number grades above their skill level, but i dont agree with it and it is poor style for sure. The only thing i have ever said to these people is a kind, friendly suggestion on some routes that are most likely more climbable, and enjoyable for them, and amazing routes in the same respect. Never would i tell them what they cant, or shouldnt be doing unless it threatens safety or access, but what i wont stand for is, making this easier for them by having an outdoor gym with draws everywhere. I wish people would think more before they post comments about me on the internet, "typical sport climber" if this anonymous person knew the level and severity of traditional routes ive done in this gorge and all over the country, then it would take a truck to get their foot out of their mouth. i wont say that i dont understand any of those view points against what the "Crew" has done.. I Can see why people view our actions as wrong, self-righteous, ill planned, and just plain old mean . Without remorse or regret all i can say in summary is.. all this craziness because you have to hang some draws?, the crag will hopefully be a little less crowded and more respected, and maybe the Red will stop being the biggest pussy climbing area in the world... where respect and ethics are nearly extinct....?

^^^ Agreed.

Oh if it were only that easy.

Alice: "Hey Bob, I can't wait for our trip to the Red this Fall! It's going to be SICK!!!"
Bob: "SICK!!!!"

Several months go by as Alice and Bob prepare for their trip to the Red by purchasing plane tickets, etc.

Alice: "Hey Bob, I just read that the "CREW" has stripped all the fixed draws at the Lode."
Bob: "Shit, really? Hmmm...let's cancel and go someplace with fixed draws then."

Hahaha.... "pussiest"??...you've obviously never been to Gold Wall in CA. What about Rifle? 12-second approaches and 90+% PDs! Like I said, I don't give too much of a shit as long as the routes are reasonably cleanable and maintained. I have always said PDs are almost worse than aluminum because they get sharp/hanger-gouged too, but appear "permanent".

Why don't we have the bolter and the re-bolter determine if PD's stay on the wall. Of course final say rests with the proprietor(s). These three parties would likely have access in mind. What the CREW is up to is just plain demagoguery--that's not a good thing by the way.