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meetVA wrote:If we are applying this logic to the PMRP, anyone want to calculate how much we'll save given that this is only a once-a-year payment that WILL be paided off within the next 10 years?

If we are applying this logic to the PMRP then I'd caution that it's important to not lose sight of the forest for the trees.

Purely hypothetical situations follow, devil's advocate so to speak cause the BOD's main concern is final ownership and things can change. Johnny's death and the Oil Company lawsuits taught us that assumptions can get you in trouble when life throws you a curve ball.

So, say we raise 60K this year and drop it all on the property. Next year for some reason we only have 15K (that's not entirely outside the realm of possibility). So now we have soured the relationship with the Murray's and default on the loan. They are going to be much less likely to work with us because:

• A: They get screwed with unexpected capital gains taxes in '06.
  B: They have done everything they could (and way more than was expected) to make this work for us.
  C: We repay them by looking out only for our own interests and remove a significant part of the benefits of what they get from selling to us.
  D: Especially when they could have gotten more cash from the oil company before they even signed the contract with us.
  E: And it's a simple fact that no bank, anywhere would have given a rag tag group of climbers a loan to buy this property with little, if any commercial value 3 years ago.

There are many alternatives, I'm not an accountant or investment broker but we've all tossed around ideas. Say we get a good chunk of the money, put it in interest bearing account/short term bond or investments that end up saving us cash like an early payoff would, plus we get the added benefit of not compromising the relationship we have with the Murray's. It's not that they say we can't pay off early (or that they would not want us to), but until we get ~180K all these conversations are merely academic. If we have the entire amount in the bank, there's no reason to believe they won't work with us but until that day comes we're focused on June, then next June, then the June after that......

These are great questions, and we've considered many different things but essentially it comes down to around 30K a year, every year, til 2013. It'd be like the most amazing thing to get the note paid in 2 years but we can't cross that bridge til we come to it.

Artsay wrote:maine - Not to knock on dear old dad but those numbers simply aren't true given a low interest rate. We were paying two extra payments a year on an old mortgage using that logic until I learned how the numbers really break down.

Paying one extra payment a year on an 8.50% 30 year loan pays it of in 22 years
Paying two extra payments a year on an 8.50% 30 year loan pays it off in 18 years
Paying one extra payment a year on an 4.75% 30 year loan takes pays it off in 26 years
Paying two extra payments a year on an 4.75% 30 year loan pays it off in 22 years

So yes, you do still earn considerable savings making extra payments but, if you have a low interest rate, you will not pay down your 30 year loan at the same rate as that old logic states.

http://www.mortgagesaver101.com/amortiz ... lator.html

Michelle, the principle is not wrong: the payoff is considerably faster wether its 23 or 26 years is not really the issue. What is the issue is the amount of savings in interest. Which was my point and concern. I reread Hughs letter and the early payoff is 180,000 vs 230,000 a savings of $50,000. That's a HUGE savings and quite honestly what I think we should be working towards. Obviously, the climbing community is commited to preserving this property by the funds raised thus far.

I am merely suggesting that we truly step up to the plate and get this property secured permanately and save "US" 50,000.

As far as my dad, he is the CEO of a large financial instition. I trust his advice on money -period. He has always stressed overpaying ones mortgage preferrably by at least a full payment/year or whatever one can afford. Additionally making your payment twice/month vs once/ month saves you considerable interest. Again these principles hold true for all loans.

maine - You and I are talking about two different things.

I'm talking about the old saying, "Pay one extra mortgage payment a year and bring your 30 year loan down to a 22 year loan. Pay two extra payments a year and bring your 30 year loan down to an 18 year loan". This old logic doesn't apply to new home owners these days given our rates are much lower.

You're talking about the savings accrued with early payoff. That is a given. I don't think anyone is in disagreement with that.

Hey all you swollen spring-loaded surge heads, bump this.

Thanks again for another generous donation Cliff!

We received a total of $350 today from three donations! This is great to see considering donations have been slow for awhile now. Everyone's generosity is simply overwhelming to me. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

Just think, if everyone who has donated so far donated that same amount again, we would reach our goal.

I'd like everyone who has given or not to consider donating 10% of their tax return. I'm in the process of setting up a website for this purpose and hope that folks will participate.

~Michelle

I just wanted to say that I get a warm fuzzy feeling everytime I see that total donation number on the front page. I'm really pumped that we are over half way there to this years payment. It never ceases to amaze me what people will do if you just ask, just put it out there and give them the option. It really makes me happy to see everyone working together on this one. Kinda what a coalition is all about. Keep up the good work.

Hey all-I'm not a local and perhaps this explains why I'm not feeling as informed about rrgcc activities as discussion on this website might indicate exists. Perhaps all this should go in the
rrgcc's website.....
-In addition to the running total of monetary donations from this website, what is the Coalitions' total? What portion of this goes directly to 'mortgage' payments?
-RRO's recent posting about a bike-trail workday...is the coalition involved in this plan?

To this outsider, it is confusing to understand the difference between the public face of the rrgcc as presented at that website (rrgcc.org) and the 'preaching to the choir' crowd that frequents and gets things done via this website. It makes me concerned that there are hidden disputes which are not being addressed and that .....?

Cliff Heindel wrote:-In addition to the running total of monetary donations from this website, what is the Coalitions' total? What portion of this goes directly to 'mortgage' payments?
-RRO's recent posting about a bike-trail workday...is the coalition involved in this plan?

The running total includes Pay-Pal donations from both this website & the RRGCC website, plus checks received in the mail by the RRGCC & cash from fundraisers. 100% of these donations will be used for this year's mortgage payment. The RRGCC is working together with this site to keep the total updated on both sites.

The proposed development of mountain biking on the PMRP is being pursued at the direction of the RRGCC.

Cliff,

One of our biggest issues is the communication problem you hint at. With some help we have managed to clean up a considerable portion of the membership info the RRGCC has gathered over the years and we will begin to send email alerts/notifications here in the very immediate future. It is an attempt to get the communication ball rolling to help with things like trail days, strategic initiaves, etc. It is just a start, but will hopefully take care of a lot of the issues we see on the RRGCC BOD as far as public awareness and communication goes. That's coming really soon!

As far as the money, this is a very high level but hopefully will help answer your questions....

~95 % of all money that is donated to the RRGCC goes to the PMRP in the form of loan payments, materials (bridges built, signs, etc.), or other related property expenses. Very little of the money goes to things other than the property, examples of which would be the PO Box, Website host and domain name, etc.

The Biking Trail day is something Matt (RRGCC Local Area Representative Director) and I (RRGCC VP) have been working on and it is part of the BOD's overall strategy.

Personally (as in not a RRGCC statement but Charlie's personal opinion) I view Ray and Michelle's site as a vehicle for communicating with the overall community. Whereas we provide information from a RRGCC standpoint, RRC.com is a discussion room for the overall Red climbing community. The two sites have different (though very intertwined) purposes and we count on and use both this site and it's members quite a bit to fill the gaps we have with the RRGCC.org site.

Though the RRGCC has no control or special responsibility on this site, we are lucky to be able to count on them to help us whenever we need. Ray and Michelle and the members of this board are some of our most trusted allies, most of whom donate and are members of the RRGCC. In the last few months more money has been raised here than anywhere else, by a considerable margin.

So yeah, even though they are different sites it's hard for me to draw a distinction in the overall scheme of things. I think both sites are largely a collection of the same people, though this site has a ton more traffic and an excellent collection of route info!

Hey Cliff a little history about these (and other) internet sites might be useful.

The RRGCC has had a website in some way shape or form for years, it wasn't until recently that a message board was added to the site. Added after several other sites with message boards had come and gone.

Way back in the 1999 (or there abouts) three guys started www.kywilderness.com which had a message board with a climbing forum. The majority of the traffic on the message board came from rock climbers. So much so that one of the guys, Jason Burton, created the now defuct climbkentucky.com to give the growing number of internet savy climbers a place to spray. That went away and Ray created the redriverclimbing.com that we have here today. Through each of these sites the virtual climbing community for the Red has grown in leaps and bounds providing a cozy familiar place for climbers to congregate on the world wide web. We're lucky that the Ray allows the Coalition to hang here so that folks in
this virtual community can be informed as to some of the Coalition's goings on. Imagine it like the RRGCC's kiosk at Miguel's.

My take on the websites...hope that helps.