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Actually, all that crap about atches national park is completley irrelevant. The park service was pissed not because he Free Soloed it, but because he caused unfixable damage to the rock with the ropes the photographers used, and by simply climbing it period. The park is not saying "Dean could have died so we are closing this down" They are saying "Dean fucked up our rock so we are closing this down" And still, you are allowed to climb there as you said.

By the way, by contributing to the existance of this threat, you are allowing future land owners to close down future crags. you ass...

So. to all of you, I pledge to free solo using only the finest, least damaging, soviet ground up ethics. I guarantee you that the motherlode will not be closed due to rope groves at the top of bohica, and you will always be allowed to set up a slacline from buff the wood to chainsaw.

AMen.

When are you all going to realize that this dude is so much more in touch with the issues at stake and has wisdom way beyond anything any of you could ever have.

gregkerzhner wrote:Actually, all that crap about atches national park is completley irrelevant. The park service was pissed not because he Free Soloed it, but because he caused unfixable damage to the rock with the ropes the photographers used, and by simply climbing it period. The park is not saying "Dean could have died so we are closing this down" They are saying "Dean fucked up our rock so we are closing this down" And still, you are allowed to climb there as you said.

that's actually not true. damage to the rock was always known. they've always known bolts irrepirably damage rock and that ropes cause grooves. they're fully aware of the damage done at owl rock.. yet that remains open to climbing. if they were concerned primarily about the damage, all climbing in arches would be closed and bolts, especially new ones, would never have been an option..

gregkerzhner wrote:By the way, by contributing to the existance of this threat, you are allowing future land owners to close down future crags. you ass...

and, like you, i'm only contributing to something that was already there.. if it hadn't been brought to light, i wasn't going to bring it up in a public forum like this. but what's been done is done.. and i'm at least trying to sound like a reasonable, rational person that's not flying off the handle about something and not making it personal( ie: childishly flinging mud and calling names, like "ass") so that people could know there'd be some way of dealing with and rationalizing on access issues.

and calling me an ass doesn't make you look much better..

The climbing plan in Arches was altered simply because Dean found a loophole and exploited it. There has always been a credo that "you don't climb on Arches", but Dean broke that, and publicized it. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was a solo, or the same National Park Service would have LONG ago closed Yosemite to climbing. Derek Hersey died soloing there, and they didn't close it then.... Potter is still there soloing crazy stuff.

As far as the fixed anchor ban.... Its desert rock. Anchors damage it. Sounds like they WERE concerned about the damage. Dean didn't use any fixed anchors, so it had little to do with him. They just got around to it simultaneously, it seems.

Toad wrote:When are you all going to realize that this dude is so much more in touch with the issues at stake and has wisdom way beyond anything any of you could ever have.

You're joking right?

This kid sounds like a F&%king idiot to me...

This thread should be Loxxored.

The arches thing is only an issue because dean damaged a nationally renowned landmark. The style of his ascend is completley irrelevant.

Okay, so according to paul, if dean had bolted the arch, and then climbed it, the national park serivce would have aproved of his actions! Well if you exuse me, im off to bolt roadside attraction. I hear if you place a bolt every 3 inches you can actualy ascend the whole route without ever touching the rock.

512OW wrote:The climbing plan in Arches was altered simply because Dean found a loophole and exploited it. There has always been a credo that "you don't climb on Arches", but Dean broke that, and publicized it. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was a solo, or the same National Park Service would have LONG ago closed Yosemite to climbing. Derek Hersey died soloing there, and they didn't close it then.... Potter is still there soloing crazy stuff.

good point about hersey.. when did that happen? just curious..

512OW wrote:As far as the fixed anchor ban.... Its desert rock. Anchors damage it. Sounds like they WERE concerned about the damage. Dean didn't use any fixed anchors, so it had little to do with him. They just got around to it simultaneously, it seems.

his act provided an impetus for their actions. regardless of whether they wanted to previously or not, it opened the door and provided them with solid ground (in terms of presenting an argument, not necessarily in terms of logic) to base their decision.

for me, the bottom line is this: soloing, as well as plain unsafe, stupid, or gumby climbing, doesn't make access now and in the future any easier to get and keep.

This thread is getting ridiculous. Greg;s actions are in the past he can not do anything about it nor can we. I think the point has been made to not do it again so let it be. This back and forth bickering is nonsense.

gregkerzhner wrote:The arches thing is only an issue because dean damaged a nationally renowned landmark. The style of his ascend is completley irrelevant.

you probably have a point about the style: leading, tr'ing, or soloing, the result would've been the same since it was publicized so widely. however, it's not true climbing the arches was banned because of damage. it was banned because it was climbed period. they found the damage after the ban was already in process (that is, in the process of officially removing the loophole).

gregkerzhner wrote:Okay, so according to paul, if dean had bolted the arch, and then climbed it, the national park serivce would have aproved of his actions! Well if you exuse me, im off to bolt roadside attraction. I hear if you place a bolt every 3 inches you can actualy ascend the whole route without ever touching the rock.

damage to the arches was expressly forbidden before hand. and climbing the arches was banned before the damage was found. read up..