Jesus H

[Saxman]

nice avatar Kipp!!!

Hmm, looks like cowsteak, not pigsteak.

[Clevis Hitch]

As far as convincing you of sin and righteousness. You have to want to see that. Convincing man of his wrothful heart and malintentions. Thats not my place. With Christianity you are not required to do anything other than believe. If you continue your search, and look at things for what they really are and not what you want them to be or have heard what they are. There a chapters of the Bible that talk about how with out Christ you won't even know that you are caught up in sin.

[dustonian]

you sound like Big Dan from "O Brother Where Art Thou"

[ynot]

!0 pages. this could easily go 20. mmm hhm This it must

[overhung]

I'm obviously a simpleton.

[camhead]

Another quirky thing that I have observed about Christian bashers and religion haters. The people that hate it the most, typically have some moral indiscretion in their past that they seek to nulify.

Oh shit, why did I start reading this thread (facepalm).

I just need to call bullshit on the quoted statement. When I was leaving Mormonism in my mid-teens, and as I have spoken to dozens of others who went through the same ordeal, judgmental sentiments such as yours were incredibly common. Whenever someone leaves Mormonism, the first thing that believers say, usually with a sort of patronizing pity is, "Oh, he's leaving the Church? I wonder what part of The Gospel he was unable to live by?" Implying, of course, that everyone who dissents is an alcoholic, drug-addled sex maniac (since those of course are the most egregious of all sins!).

I guess it was true to a degree, however. The part of "The Gospel" that I was unable to live by was the part about having to believe in infallible prophets, an invented history of the Americas, and visits by God.

And, Clevis, I'm just going to make the assumption that you are some sort of regionally Southern Evangelical and/or fundamentalist who thinks Mormonism is just terrible. Which it is. But your own Christianity is JUST as much an invented, human institution that plays upon existing power dynamics, psychology, and weaknesses in humans.

That's all.

[Climbingrocks]

But your own Christianity is JUST as much an invented, human institution that plays upon existing power dynamics, psychology, and weaknesses in humans.

That's all.

Well said! That is definitely the whole point. We KNOW that it doesn't make you a better person...that much we know for sure, but talking all the rhetoric spiritual mumbo jumbo doesn't argue at all in favor of it actually being true.

The truth part should be the most important but it never seems to get any attention.

[mike_a_lafontaine]

i can't think of a single thing i've done in my life deserving of hell. there's nothing i've done that needs to be forgiven. i'm not a 'sinful' person just because i don't believe in jesus.

In that regards, I've often wondered from the Christian's point of view, is it better to be a good person but atheist or a terrible person and proclaim Jesus? Or even a good person and proclaim Jesus? In my mind, the only honestly good person is the atheist who, despite not believing a reward in the afterlife for doing so, is STILL a kind and selfless person. Even the most giving Christians, don't you have to wonder if they are only playing nice because they want the reward at the end?

[Climbingrocks]

Great point!

[climb2core]

In that regards, I've often wondered from the Christian's point of view, is it better to be a good person but atheist or a terrible person and proclaim Jesus? Or even a good person and proclaim Jesus? In my mind, the only honestly good person is the atheist who, despite not believing a reward in the afterlife for doing so, is STILL a kind and selfless person. Even the most giving Christians, don't you have to wonder if they are only playing nice because they want the reward at the end?

Although I hopefully fall into the Atheist doing good category, you can't discount a christian that does things right because they believe it is the right thing to do, not just because they would suffer damnation.