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So aside from belay device/operator error and being frowned upon by
the gods of climbing, glue-ins should make VW's even less of an impact
than they already are.?.

Victory Whip in da house. Yeah.

Toad-you have a special ability to articulate the rock's thinking.

nope not full of shit.... i wasn't falling at full speed, much of the force of the fall was already absorbed by the system and her being lifted into the air. She wasn't pinned against a roof she just got sucked into to first draw. It probably was an asshole thing to do, but she didn't freak out at all. She took her purse off dug the sand out of her vagina and realized that it doesn't get much weirder than that and it all still worked out fine. She was totally cool belayin the rest of her friends the rest of the trip.

the lurkist wrote:thanks for the feed back dhoyne.
A follow up then.
Is it possible that the system of Corbin SS and a properly placed 3 3/4 Mechanical bolt (Rawl,redhead, dynobolt gold, etc) is much stronger (perhaps the term over engineered could be used) and resists the torqueing forces of repetitive falls to the point that minimal wear is evident (neglible wear accumulates) after many years of use? Is there a real concern of failure with this system with repetitive long dynamically caught/belayed falls?

That I can't answer... I don't have any data or knowledge on the longevity of the bolt-rock system.

What about water intrusion and freezing? Sandstone is porous, right? So if the bolt/stone contact or resulting fractures from falling forces allow water to seep into the rock and that water then freezes wouldn't that cause the rock around the bolt to be weaker? Or does the glue penetrating into the stone actually act to make the rock more water resistant? And what about water freezing inside mechanical bolts?

What about Quarks, Gluons and Neutrinos passing through the rock and the hardware?

Man. Climbing has gotten so unsafe in the past few years.

Remember when sex was safe and climbing was dangerous?

ynot wrote:Remember when sex was safe and climbing was dangerous?

nope.

I was born in 79, by time I was aware of anything outside of the sandbox Aids was out and sport climbing was already popular.




... I think I just killed this thread off.

Rick, I asked the BMC (British Mountaineering Council) for their opinion on the stainless glue-in staples I recently suggested. Below is their reply.


"Hi Peter,

Thanks for your email, and for the attached document. I've just started work here at the BMC, and one of the first projects I'm involved with is the compilation of bolting advice and guidelines for installers and climbers. We have a draft document at the moment, which doesn't appear to say much that is different from the information already available to you. Our approach is slightly different, in that we are not promoting or approving particular methods of bolting. We aim to provide information so that installers and users can decide for themselves which bolts are safe or not to install or use.

I can't answer all of your questions specifically, as I'm waiting on some definitive information from the people involved in the bolting itself, but what I can answer I will. The staples in Portland are home made from 8mm stainless steel bar, from A4 or 316 marine grade. There are several concerns reported to us over the use of these staples, which are:

Particularly in soft rock, drilling two holes close together will cause micro-cracking between the holes to a depth of up to 30mm. Most staples are drilled to 50mm, so this is potentially going to cause a problem.

The anchor cannot be screwed into the glue, only pushed and wiggled. This means that potentially the bond between anchor and glue isn't as good, and there may be voids left by the passage of the anchor through the glue. It appears that mechanical bonding is as important or more important than any chemical bond between the glue and metal.
If the size of the protuding staple is just right (or wrong, depending how you look at it!), then a krab of just the right size can be lifted onto it as you climb past, and in a fall simply unclip itself from the staple.
For these reasons staples have fallen out of favour in many other climbing areas. There have been a few failures, mostly from outward pulls on low bolts with the belayer stood well back. I hope this information is useful, and when we have a full and final document put together I'll email you a copy or link.

Best regards

Dan Middleton
BMC Technical Officer
DD: 0161 438 3326
<<Dan Middleton (E-mail).vcf>>


Dan Middleton
Technical Officer
British Mountaineering Council
177-179 Burton Road
Manchester
M20 2BB

www.thebmc.co.uk
Switchboard: 0870 010 4878
Direct Line: 0161 438 3326
Fax: 0161 445 4500 "


PLJ

For those following our glue-in bolt experimentation, the problem of keeping Fixe eyebolts from sliding out of holes drilled at angles greater than horizontal while the epoxy is curing has been solved. I machined some brass retainer bushings that can be slipped over the eyebolts prior to their insertion into the epoxy-filled holes. They are tapered as shown in the photo and also include two notches to allow any trapped air and epoxy to escape when the eyebolt with bushing is pressed into the hole. A couple light taps from a hammer locks the bushing and eyebolt into place.

The first test of this method was done in a horizontal roof and worked perfectly. Hopefully, the bolt replacement work on a few of the MV steep routes in the Sanctuary and the Solarium will be a lot easier now. Previously, tape was used with marginal success to hold the bolt in place until the epoxy cured.

Rick