RRC Archives

Saxman wrote:I think cards to hand out at the crags and pamphlets to put on windshields/pass out at Miguels,RRO,True North, etc, would be good.

i'd really push for that not to happen.. i see it like this.

sign on windshield = trash in parking lot
handout at crag = trash at crag

maybe just something at the kiosk or miguel's.. but something people don't have to hold on to until they get back to the car. i'd rather have them not read it than have them read it then lose it at the crag (or worse, not read it and lose it).

sign on windshield = trash in parking lot
handout at crag = trash at crag

Not if you use that superglue stuff the traffic cops use to put notices on car windows!!!

handouts are a bad idea, unnessary paper and expence. posting signs and doing something with the online guide book are great ideas.

Something to post places is fine. I still think having a small card to hand out to people when talking to them is a good idea. I think we would be able to tell after talking to someone for a couple of minutes whether we should give them a card or not. I was not talking about throwing cards at everyone we meet without talking to them. I feel that would accomplish nothing and do agree it would add to littering possibilities.

It is interesting to see all of the various comments and shows that the climbing community really does care and can mobilize when needed. The Torrent thing is a two way street. You can't own property and basically ask for money (donations or whatever you want to call it) expect stellar behavior and yet assume no responsibility for laying down the rules in a clear and prominent manner. I use to own a gym and in the beginning people brought dogs there - as was the custom in the early days of indoor gyms. Even goodguy brought his dog. Like it or not I had to assume responsibility despite all the unfavorable comments at the time and flat out enforce a no dogs rule. I like dogs - not all customers did and guess what they pee where and when they have to. Good for the gym floor. Kids - I love them, I have two sons, 3 grandsons, 3 step children, and seven step grandchildren. Guess what - some of my best customers brought their 2 and 3yr. olds there and let them run wild. Again I had to make some rules. Here is the deal - put signs up saying clearly what is expected - what is the difference from "STRONGLY SUGGESTING" you donate two dollars or you can charge to park at the BBQ. Have a spot near the BBQ for say 10 cars and have your BBQ person STRONGLY SUGGEST that you should make a donation. No one cares about giving a few bucks - it is some peoples nature to convenietnly forget to donate if no pressue to do so is applied. Hey it takes money to keep things up and it is o.k. to ask for it (strongley suggest). All of the climbers can help by being on good behavior - but again it is going to be in some peoples nature to slip once in awhile - after all we are only mere mortals. Mark or someone connected to Torrent could sweep through once in awhile to remind people if they are somehow out of line. Probably good for business as well. If you are to busy and if you think that all you can manage is an occasional rant and a threat to close than maybe that is the best solution. I like Mark and I climb at torrent only occasionally - I have bought gear from him as well as food and stayed at the Cabins twice. So he does benefit from climbers in various different ways. We can help but it is ultimately his responsibility to assume control or walk away. As for climbers policing (strange word to use ) other climbers, maybe that will work somtimes or maybe there will be an additional rule - no fighting. To me having a place that is open to climbing and wanting to have it operate without your personal guideance is like rock climbing and thinking you are never going to fall - it is unrealistic. Also have a kiosk where people sign in and out and consent to a waiver - just like is done at Drapers Bluff
(privately owned by Eric Ulner) and Muir Valley. I think the idea that not openly charging for climbing is insulating you entirely from liability could probably be shot down by a good lawyer - a waiver is needed - and even that is not bulletproof. There are a lot of climber/lawyers out there - what are your thoughts on the liability issues and donations - where does the money go - what records are kept ? etc. etc. I am just saying that when it comes to liabilty you have to think like Ken Nunn (accident lawyer) and just sticking your head in the sand will not save your butt.

Toy wrote:

Having said that, self-policing, while sometimes uncomfortable and unpleasant, requires us to actually grab sack and verbalize our displeasure with the misbehavior of others. .

This is easier said than done, in general most of the community are non-aggressive in this manner. On here, thats different, tough talk abounds,
but most do not actually portray themselves as they're intertnet personas. I am mild mannered and passive aggressive, however on here, I am portrayed as a right wing, gun totin, ex-military, weekender,(who started that rumor??). I got anyones back who needs it when enforcing the above rules at Torrent!! Sunshine, The Sheriff, JR, RRO, TrueNorth, these are all people I personally know who will have no patience with the offenders.

so back to 2 pages ago, I think that pic of J-Rock taking a dump would be perfect on the flyer!

oh, and as many of you know, I have NO problem telling people when they are doing something they shouldn't. If I climbed at Torrent more often, I'd have probably already killed several of you.

Sandy wrote:oh, and as many of you know, I have NO problem telling people when they are doing something they shouldn't. If I climbed at Torrent more often, I'd have probably already killed several of you.

I haven't seen you in 2 years and you still killed me 3 times.

Sandy wrote:so back to 2 pages ago, I think that pic of J-Rock taking a dump would be perfect on the flyer!

I was swillin' on a big ole' glass of beer when I read that and I nearly spewed all over the screen. Anyway, Karla probably has that photo somewhere.

Those weren't my turds though! It was a cow pasture and I was faking it! I sware!