Victory Whippers & Spinners

[weber]

as we all should. take sunshines advice and carry around a wrench to tightten these lil guys up

Liz and I will be around the barn at Muir for the next three or four days. Stop by for a free high quality box wrench, sized for Rawls and Dynabolts and some tightening instructions, such as how to best orient a loose hanger bracket.

Dynabolt Golds are currently being used through the entire RRG. After doing a lot of testing, I feel very comfortable using them. They certainly present a stronger, safer alternative to other methods of affixing hangers to sandstone.

But, keep in mind that they are NOT 100% SAFE!

No bolting system is, especially when you throw in the weak rock factor. If you wish to be guaranteed 100% safety, then this is not the sport for you.

To quote the Safe Climbing Association:

“Bolts used for outdoor rock climbing in the U.S. have historically not been regulated or certified in any way. Historical practice is to use bolts which are nowhere near any ‘reasonable’ level of safety compared to the standards of modern society, and even the bolts used now to establish new routes and replace old bolts are not certified or regulated in any way. Limitations due to ease and speed and type mean that even many bolts used by the ASCA are nowhere near what would be considered acceptable safety margins in other walks of life such as the modern construction industry. No bolt is ever guaranteed, and trusting a bolt with your life is always a gamble.”

And finally, to quote Hellen Keller:

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all.”

How, what, and if you climb is your choice. We will do everything reasonably possible in Muir to minimize the risk, but it is very real. Be advised that rock climbing is an inherently dangerous sport.

Rick

[rhunt]

Rick,

I hope this doesn't come off as sounding wrong. You're questions to me seem loaded and so I won't answer them in full.

All i can say in the short time I have the rest of today to post is this. The 1980's philosophies/ethics about what is safe and what works and doesn't work was great for the 80's and early 90's but they are not necessarily going to work in 2005. Climbers are not going to stop taking victory whipper just because you ask them too(although I hope they do on your land) esp when there experience tells them there is nothing wrong with doing it...bolts so far have never broken or otherwise failed because of taking victory whippers. So now in 2005 we have to change our persceptives, philosophies and ethics as to what is safe and what works. I have really only been climbing a sort time, 11 years, yet I have gone from using 11mm ropes thinking that was the safest size they could make and hold fall to now using ropes that are so thin I wonder if my grigri will work. That is what I am trying to get at. Times change, technology changes, climbing styles change and climbers abilities improve; therefore philosophies/ethics must change. You'll have to forgive me my written communication skills are not the best and I have a hard time explaining myself on paper....I hope that helps

Rob

[J-Rock]

Well, it was certainly boring on here for the last couple of weeks and this thread sure livened things up a bit!

[Crankmas]

would threadlocker on the bolt threads be a logical progression to route development, they make different levels of hardness, seems like a good medium would improve function

[pigsteak]

J Rock...Eric Ulner who owns Drapers Bluff in So ILL...said it best. When I inquired about bolting on his property, he politely declined. He said "Although I have about 40 lines put up (trad and sport), I know there is room for a hundred more quality lines. And my intention is to take the rest of my lifetime enjoying the process."

So maybe Draper's won't be fully bolted for another 50 years. Are we going to be able to say the same for MV? Should we be saving a few lines for the next generation to enjoy?

[J-Rock]

Muir won't be done for a long time... there is simply too much good rock out there. I think that the same is probably true of the Southern Region too! By the way, that was a cool quote from Eric Ulner. As far as the speed of new routes goes, I don't really feel like we are rushing the process at all. At the current rate I would estimate that there will be 400-500 routes by 2008. I also like the idea of still being able to add routes many years later...

With all of the recent developments and new land purchases in the Red lately it seems likely that this process will be continuing for many more years. What saddens me though is the loss of several classic areas on Forest Service land, such as Hen's Nest.

[Spragwa]

Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. I've learned a ton. I've not added my two cents b/c I don't know a damn thing about bolting and Busty covered the legal area well.

But I will say that Christian wins points for his definition of spinner

[weber]

...
Mr weber would you start raising llamas so we could use them to carry our gear to and from the crags? I would be willing to move to the Red and care for the herd.

And, who says we don't respond promptly to critique and suggestions. The Muir Taxi Service will begin tomorrow... if I can just figure out a way to get these critters down there.

Actually, I don't think my neighbor who owns these beautiful animals would part with them.

Fun thought, though.

Rick

[weber]

Rick,

....I hope that helps

Rob

Thanks, Rob. Yes, this does help me understand the point you were making.

Rick

[weber]

would threadlocker on the bolt threads be a logical progression to route development, they make different levels of hardness, seems like a good medium would improve function

Good suggestion. We do use 222 (blue) and 262 (red) for some applications -- especially when nuts are screwed onto threaded rods. But there are reasons why this wouldn't help prevent loosened Dynabolt Golds. Liz and I are packing to head to the Red, so I'll try to provide a comprehensive answer later.

Rick